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I have heard the sentiment on many occasions that Indigo Snakes should not be kept by beginning snake enthusiasts. I strongly disagree with this belief, and I feel that it leads to a concept that keepers of Indigo Snakes are an elite group of people with special abilities. While some Indigo keepers may indeed be elite, no special abilities are necessary in order to keep and maintain Indigo Snakes as happy, healthy animals.

There are a few differences between the care of Indigo Snakes (Drymarchon) and other genera of snakes, which should be known by anyone keeping them. The most important two general items on this list have to be water and temperature (perhaps a third item should be meal size).

The Indigo Snake, as I have posted earlier, requires a continuous source of water in the wild and in captivity. They drink daily, and they drink more than most snakes, primarily because they transpire more moisture through their skin than most other snakes. If an Indigo Snake is "run dry" for more than two days, uric acid will begin to build up in the bloodstream and will begin to damage the kidneys. Indigos that have endured this may be unable to metabolize larger meals, with the outcome that they will actually seem to lose weight with larger feedings and commonly die. Such an animal has symptoms which resemble cryptosporidium in many ways, except without regurgitation.

Any beginning snake keeper will easily avoid this problem simply by insuring that the animals have a continuous source of water.

I have picked up gopher snakes on hot roadways that had body temperatures in excess of 100 degrees fahrenheit. Indigo Snakes can't tolerate continuous ambient temperatures above 84. When an Indigo Snake gets too warm, they will sit in their water bowls if they can (until the water bowl gets too warm) and then they will begin to cruise their cage continuously, looking for a way to get out. At slightly too warm temps, this continuous movement may go on for days or weeks, leading to their belly scales becoming frayed and split. At higher temperatures, the animals will simply perish.

Beginning snake keepers need to insure that the ambient temperature in the room where Indigo Snakes are housed doesn't get above 85 or 86 for too long. If the snakes have had a cool night, they will be happy with 86 ambient for at least several hours as they are warming up. If temperature is kept continuous night and day, they shouldn't be above 84. Indigo keepers should be on the lookout for continuous cruising of the cage and an appearance that the snake is urgent to get out. The temperature may be too high.

Some people live geographically where this may not be an issue. Those that live in warmer areas need to have the ability to cool the snake room, with an air conditioner for example. Many newer window air conditioners come with relatively sophisticated digital thermostats that can be set to come on at a specific temperature. All Indigo keepers should invest in either a cage thermostat coupled to some form of cage heating (like heat tape, on one side of the cage only) or a room thermostat wherein the entire room is heated to the desired daytime temperature.

Another thing that Indigo Snakes don't like is the smell of their own fecal matter, which will also commonly cause them to move around a lot, trying to get out. I will try to address this subject later.

I have owned Indigo Snakes for more than ten years, and I have been breeding Eastern Indigo Snakes for the last five years. I have the largest colony of Eastern Indigos in the world. I don't like to hear things that discourage others, particularly beginners, from keeping Indigos, because keeping them is a more rewarding endeavor than with any other reptile. Owners of Indigo Snakes will quickly identify with the Indigo Snake persona and disposition, and will literally have a "relationship" with their animals. Indigo Snakes, particularly the Eastern Indigo in my opinion, are more personable, alert and intelligent than any other snake.

I myself, and many other of my friends and aquaintances who keep these animals, have made ourselves available to help others with their questions regarding the keeping of Indigos. I for one have always tried to help anyone who has sought my assistance. I strongly believe that there are not enough people keeping Indigos in this world, and there need to be more, both beginners and "experts."

If a beginning snake enthusiast has the inclination (and can afford the high price tag) keeping and loving an Indigo Snake will be an experience that he or she will never forget.

Robert Bruce.

Great stuff oh self confessed largest eastern indigo breeder in the world (have you surveyed the entire globe?...just curious). For the most part, all of the information was pretty good although I do disagree that indigos can thrive at a constant temperature of 84 degrees F.; that's way to warm in my opinion (but then, again, I am a self confessed "smallest eastern indigo snake breeder who has been keeping/breeding indigos for 20 years and is a Curator of a reptile zoo in the world" so what do I know). Indigos must have thermal gradients and if a keeper cannot provide the opportunity to thermoregulate, and, have adequate night time drops, they shouldn't keep them....it looks like you were alluding to this but a constant temp is not good for this snake.

I am glad, however, that you mentioned the need for constant fresh water....that to me, is perhaps the most important aspect of indigo keeping (assuming all other factors are taken care of).

Other than that, I have never heard the argument that this is an elitest snake to work with. Like you said, anyone can keep an indigo as long as they have the proper set up and proper feeding/maintenance protocols. Heck, I'd go so far as to say they are the world's greatest snake to keep in captivity.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>I have heard the sentiment on many occasions that Indigo Snakes should not be kept by beginning snake enthusiasts. I strongly disagree with this belief, and I feel that it leads to a concept that keepers of Indigo Snakes are an elite group of people with special abilities. While some Indigo keepers may indeed be elite, no special abilities are necessary in order to keep and maintain Indigo Snakes as happy, healthy animals.
>>
>>There are a few differences between the care of Indigo Snakes (Drymarchon) and other genera of snakes, which should be known by anyone keeping them. The most important two general items on this list have to be water and temperature (perhaps a third item should be meal size).
>>
>>The Indigo Snake, as I have posted earlier, requires a continuous source of water in the wild and in captivity. They drink daily, and they drink more than most snakes, primarily because they transpire more moisture through their skin than most other snakes. If an Indigo Snake is "run dry" for more than two days, uric acid will begin to build up in the bloodstream and will begin to damage the kidneys. Indigos that have endured this may be unable to metabolize larger meals, with the outcome that they will actually seem to lose weight with larger feedings and commonly die. Such an animal has symptoms which resemble cryptosporidium in many ways, except without regurgitation.
>>
>>Any beginning snake keeper will easily avoid this problem simply by insuring that the animals have a continuous source of water.
>>
>>I have picked up gopher snakes on hot roadways that had body temperatures in excess of 100 degrees fahrenheit. Indigo Snakes can't tolerate continuous ambient temperatures above 84. When an Indigo Snake gets too warm, they will sit in their water bowls if they can (until the water bowl gets too warm) and then they will begin to cruise their cage continuously, looking for a way to get out. At slightly too warm temps, this continuous movement may go on for days or weeks, leading to their belly scales becoming frayed and split. At higher temperatures, the animals will simply perish.
>>
>>Beginning snake keepers need to insure that the ambient temperature in the room where Indigo Snakes are housed doesn't get above 85 or 86 for too long. If the snakes have had a cool night, they will be happy with 86 ambient for at least several hours as they are warming up. If temperature is kept continuous night and day, they shouldn't be above 84. Indigo keepers should be on the lookout for continuous cruising of the cage and an appearance that the snake is urgent to get out. The temperature may be too high.
>>
>>Some people live geographically where this may not be an issue. Those that live in warmer areas need to have the ability to cool the snake room, with an air conditioner for example. Many newer window air conditioners come with relatively sophisticated digital thermostats that can be set to come on at a specific temperature. All Indigo keepers should invest in either a cage thermostat coupled to some form of cage heating (like heat tape, on one side of the cage only) or a room thermostat wherein the entire room is heated to the desired daytime temperature.
>>
>>Another thing that Indigo Snakes don't like is the smell of their own fecal matter, which will also commonly cause them to move around a lot, trying to get out. I will try to address this subject later.
>>
>>I have owned Indigo Snakes for more than ten years, and I have been breeding Eastern Indigo Snakes for the last five years. I have the largest colony of Eastern Indigos in the world. I don't like to hear things that discourage others, particularly beginners, from keeping Indigos, because keeping them is a more rewarding endeavor than with any other reptile. Owners of Indigo Snakes will quickly identify with the Indigo Snake persona and disposition, and will literally have a "relationship" with their animals. Indigo Snakes, particularly the Eastern Indigo in my opinion, are more personable, alert and intelligent than any other snake.
>>
>>I myself, and many other of my friends and aquaintances who keep these animals, have made ourselves available to help others with their questions regarding the keeping of Indigos. I for one have always tried to help anyone who has sought my assistance. I strongly believe that there are not enough people keeping Indigos in this world, and there need to be more, both beginners and "experts."
>>
>>If a beginning snake enthusiast has the inclination (and can afford the high price tag) keeping and loving an Indigo Snake will be an experience that he or she will never forget.
>>
>>Robert Bruce.
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Dear Rob,

I wasn't meaning to tout myself and I am sorry to offend you. I see a lot of posts by people with little or no experience with Indigos, who are just towing a standard line. What I meant to convey is that my opinions and observations have been developed over years of work with a large number of Eastern Indigos and other Drymarchon in my collection.

We both agree that Eastern Indigos are the greatest animal to be kept by snake lovers. I want to try to encourage beginning snake enthusiasts to at least not be afraid to obtain an Eastern Indigo Snake.

The concept of thermoregulation is an important one. For the beginning owner, I often suggest that they keep the snake room at normal room temperature and heat one side of the cage so that the Indigo can choose what temperature it is happy with. I have over 40 adults and subadults, and so I have never seriously considered heating each cage individually. I heat each snake room as a whole, and I have been able to be very successful at keeping and breeding Easterns by doing this. Since I have gone this route, I have always been very careful to study the response of Eastern Indigos to temperature.

Eighty four is the borderline temperature for an Eastern (at about fifty percent humidity). Some Easterns will begin to become uncomfortable at or just above this temp. I have experimented with continuous night and day temperatures, and also with daytime heating/night time cooling. I have had no problems with continuous night and day temperature, and I would suggest that 82 is a good choice for this. (Since these animals cool by transpiration, as the humidity is raised, their comfortable temperature is lowered).

Although I have no hard and fast evidence, my animals (and eggs too for that matter) have always seemed to do better with day to night temperature cycling, with the night time temperature maybe five to ten degrees lower than the daytime temperature. This is a perception of mine only. If the night time temperature goes down to 75, then the animals will be fine with an ambient room temperature of 85 or 86 (their bodies never reach that temp if they were cooled the night before). The keeper must assure that heating does indeed stop at night, as 85 to 86 continuously will become uncomfortable.

Giving Indigos the ability to thermoregulate (determine their own best temperature by providing warm and cool sides to the cage) obviously works well. My own experience however clearly shows that if the temperatures are managed carefully, the entire snake room can be controlled instead. Yes, the ability for each animal to thermoregulate has been lost, but my animals prove that it can be done effectively. My animals are healthy, physically strong, vigorous, and efficient breeders.

Robert Bruce
robert.bruce@sbcglobal.net

I apologize for my initial comments; those weren't necessary and you were only trying to provide your background experience (I should keep my personal feelings to myself).

Although you have had success, I have to disagree with your protocol. Yes, you claim to have had good success but as keepers, it is our responsibility to try to provide an environment that is as close to nature as possible. Field research taking place suggests that these animals do thermal regulate quite often. Exposing indigos to constant temps, in my opinion, is not a good practice; particularly at the temps you are recommending. It sounds like you are keeping too many indigos under one roof and perhaps you should consider thinning out your collection and try to provide thermal gradients for those you are keeping; just a suggestion.

Like you, I spend a lot of time observing my indigos and when given thermal gradients (both day and night) they spend a lot of time moving around and doing things that are natural to them. Breeding success does not equate to doing what's right. As we know, snakes will breed successfully in filthy conditions but that doesn't make it right (or "successful" from the standpoint of the breeder). If you are keeping 40 adult indigos, what size enclosures are you keeping them in? Assuming you are giving them at least 12-18 square feet of space per individual, you must have quite a large facility (I'm envious). If, however, they are kept in rack style systems, I feel badly for them. Hopefully, that's not the case. You did make some interesting comments though and it sounds like your intentions are good.

But, we both agree in that these can be kept by beginners and they are indeed wonderful animals to keep as pets.

>>Dear Rob,
>>
>>I wasn't meaning to tout myself and I am sorry to offend you. I see a lot of posts by people with little or no experience with Indigos, who are just towing a standard line. What I meant to convey is that my opinions and observations have been developed over years of work with a large number of Eastern Indigos and other Drymarchon in my collection.
>>
>>We both agree that Eastern Indigos are the greatest animal to be kept by snake lovers. I want to try to encourage beginning snake enthusiasts to at least not be afraid to obtain an Eastern Indigo Snake.
>>
>>The concept of thermoregulation is an important one. For the beginning owner, I often suggest that they keep the snake room at normal room temperature and heat one side of the cage so that the Indigo can choose what temperature it is happy with. I have over 40 adults and subadults, and so I have never seriously considered heating each cage individually. I heat each snake room as a whole, and I have been able to be very successful at keeping and breeding Easterns by doing this. Since I have gone this route, I have always been very careful to study the response of Eastern Indigos to temperature.
>>
>>Eighty four is the borderline temperature for an Eastern (at about fifty percent humidity). Some Easterns will begin to become uncomfortable at or just above this temp. I have experimented with continuous night and day temperatures, and also with daytime heating/night time cooling. I have had no problems with continuous night and day temperature, and I would suggest that 82 is a good choice for this. (Since these animals cool by transpiration, as the humidity is raised, their comfortable temperature is lowered).
>>
>>Although I have no hard and fast evidence, my animals (and eggs too for that matter) have always seemed to do better with day to night temperature cycling, with the night time temperature maybe five to ten degrees lower than the daytime temperature. This is a perception of mine only. If the night time temperature goes down to 75, then the animals will be fine with an ambient room temperature of 85 or 86 (their bodies never reach that temp if they were cooled the night before). The keeper must assure that heating does indeed stop at night, as 85 to 86 continuously will become uncomfortable.
>>
>>Giving Indigos the ability to thermoregulate (determine their own best temperature by providing warm and cool sides to the cage) obviously works well. My own experience however clearly shows that if the temperatures are managed carefully, the entire snake room can be controlled instead. Yes, the ability for each animal to thermoregulate has been lost, but my animals prove that it can be done effectively. My animals are healthy, physically strong, vigorous, and efficient breeders.
>>
>>Robert Bruce
>>robert.bruce@sbcglobal.net
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

"(Since these animals cool by transpiration, as the humidity is raised, their comfortable temperature is lowered)."

Are you saying these animals thermoregulate, in part, via transpiration?

Thanks Robert Bruce.If you happen to live in a state where you can't keep an Indigo anymore and had the inclination to check out the experience what would you suggest as the NEXT best Dry to keep. I've enjoyed Jeffs pics and posts about Rubidus and Dan Felices' about Unicolors. Thanks again for taking the time to say what you said. I have always thought there were some First class decent guys on this Forum. I think a little humility says a lot about a person.
Bob.

Dear Bob,

Without reservation, I would suggest Unicolor Cribos for those who can't own Eastern Indigos (or who simply want a different look). I have only one Unicolor Cribo but his personality is so strong that he seems to be a human reincarnated (Lloyd Lemke maybe). If he weren't a golden colored animal, I would think he was an Eastern.

Unicolor Cribos are of course "Indigo Snakes" from Central America, being Drymarchon corais unicolor.

Robert Bruce
robert.bruce@sbcglobal.net

Personally, I would suggest such individuals acquire a Texas Indigo or Mexican West Coast Indigo, as many are drawn to the rich "indigo" coloration of of Eastern Indigos.
Robert, the systematics of Drymarchon spp. has changed a bit, as Unicolor Cribos are now recognized as a sub-species of Drymarchon melanurus melanurus. Hence, they, Unicolor Cribos, are now D. m unicolor, while Drymarchon corais now contains only a single species, the Yellow-tail Cribo or Drymarchon corais. Below is a link to this regard:

biology.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/Taxa/Drymar.htm

Best regards,

Jeff
-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Dear Jeff,

Since this thread is for beginners, I personally wouldn't suggest Mexican Indigos, as they are (frequently/usually) much more high-strung than Easterns. Yellowtails are (frequently/usually) worse.

Although Texas Indigos have nice personalities, I personally don't favor them because they look like a "shabby" version of an Eastern Indigo. In Texas Indigos there is (usually) a lot of lighter colored skin in between the scales, and the scale color is more brown-black than blue-black in an Eastern.

Note the words I have placed in parentheses. You may be able to find individuals, even of Yellowtails, that don't fit my characterizations. Purchasing these animals sight-unseen however, is a crapshoot for the reasons I have indicated.

Unless there is an overriding good reason, all beginners and even most experienced snake keepers should absolutely stay away from wild-caught animals. Most such animals are parasite-laden, water-starved during transport (kidney damage), transmit diseases to expensive captive-bred animals, and then die not too long after being purchased.

If a person can provide good care and can scratch up the money, he or she will be much more satisfied with a captive-bred Eastern Indigo.

Robert Bruce
robert.bruce@sbcglobal.net

While we agree on most aspects of your post, I must respectfully disagree with you, regarding the temperament of both YT's and MWC's, as the numbers simply do not point to such a conclusion. I currently have 4.8 D. corais and only a single specimen is defensive, a WC animal, and most are handled on a regular basis by elementary - high school aged children. The same can be said for the D. m rubidus within my collection, as I now have 5.5 and all but one are as docile as any D. couperi. However, the one I have indicated is by no means a high strung specimen, but rather a bit sheepish. You know the one, it's the large male I acquired from you a few years ago, but he now tolerates handeling quite well and no longer acts defensively when I enter his enclosure, just has that "look"... ;0)

Best regards,

Jeff

Best regards,

Jeff
-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

when yt's are bad, they're really bad! i've had a massive male now for about 6 years [he was small back then] & if anything, he's getting worse! last winter he almost amputated a finger for me. he's fine when left alone, is an absolute sweetheart w/ the ladies but goes to 'defcon 5' the second i open his door & it's no bluff! sorry it took so long to type this but i'm not as fast as i used to be unfortunately.....:>/

Some might recall "Surprise" the YT belonging to Jeff Nichols, now residing within my collection. he can be an absolute sweetheart one minute, then simply turn an sample the nearest appendage the next. Again, I will say such behavior is the exception, not the norm, and I believe Bobby Lee will agree. he has worked with perhaps more WC D. corais then anyone I am aware of and we have discussed this topic on more than one occasion.
The behavior indicated regarding your specimen is not all that common, but I am aware of a few specimens harboring a high defense mechanism and they can be a nightmare to work with. Personally, I would not recommend a large WC Dry for anyone other then highly experienced Dry keepers, regardless of the species. However, I do not believe CB specimens are all that difficult to maintain properly and I would have no qualms recommending any members of the clan to a beginning hobbyist, though I do tend to recommend those new to the genus look into teh acquisition of a BT or Unicolor first...

Best regards,

Jeff
-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Dear Bob,

Which state do you reside in?

I personally know people in Texas, New York, Virginia, and Georgia who have been permitted. In Texas, it is trivial. New York is easy. Virginia appears to be relatively easy, Georgia may be tough.

Robert Bruce.

Robert Bruce. Unfortunately N.J. I think the Unicolor and the Texas Indigos are interesting, Jeff's Rubidis are awesome too. There is something though about that solid, shiny, blue/black Eastern look that is special. I had an Eastern when I was a kid a long,long, time ago and he was very personable and I don't really remember him being all that stinky and messy like I commonly see in threads (not something that appeals to me .I am a bit of a neat freak)

The only thing I've found that comes close to the outstanding shiny blue/black of an Eastern Indigo is some particularly nice Black Milks. Mex. Black Kings are usually dark brown as are many Eastern Kings when you look closely under bright light at them. Even the best Black Pines still show too much pattern and are sometimes dark brown for me. I once saw a Cobra, I think Forest Cobra, That was Indigo Blue /Black.

You guys are REALLY fortunate to have the ability to work with such beautiful animals. Maybe I'll move to another state someday and be able to, but until then I guess I'll have to enjoy all of your Indigo posts on this Forum from a distance guys.

Thanks all for being kind to a wannabe.

Bob.

this is not a slam, please don't be offended by the questions. if i were not dedicated to other species, i would be managing a collection of indigos (another good characteristic for a owner- lead with your head, and not with your heart...)

About water- ( if i read your post correctly )what is unique about the indigo that it loses water through its skin/scales? there are no sweat glands, the only external glands i am aware of in snakes originate in the cloaca. has this water loss/transpiration been observed or measured? being fossorial and spending a considerable amount of time in burrows (as i understand) how or why would this happen? this is a large animal, its surface area:mass ratio is lower than small snakes so should lose proportionately less water than smaller species by this mechanism?

i do not debate the need for water in any quantity or rate. maybe the need in captivity is greater, where there are no burrows, and water content of diet may be dissimilar?
Just a few thoughts...

daveb

Avenues of evaporation in reptiles include the respiratory tract, eyes (not so much in snakes) and the skin. Drymarchon spp. in general harbor very high metabolisms, which further translate into water loss. As for water loss through skin, you are correct in that reptiles do not harbor sweat glands, but one must take into consideration the effects of evaporative water loss through the skin, which can be significantly high among reptiles living within humid climates. Anyone harboring an interest in this area and wishing to review some literature to this regard, feel free to e-mail me.
In the wild, as Robert has mentioned, you will never find a member of the Dry clan far from a permanent source of water and both wild and captive specimens consume copious amounts. While specimens in the wild are highly fossorial, not completely and many specimens are actually quite arboreal, the root masses and gopher tortoise burrows utilized are much cooler then surface temperatures throughout much of the year and maintain good humidity, which helps to reduce the amount of evaporative water loss through the skin. Specimens within an enclosure do not always have access to a humid hide and thus the availability of fresh drinking water, at all times, is crucial to the health and well being of the snakes, as dehydration often leads to chronic renal failure within Drys, much the same as Chondro pythons and, again as Robert has indicated, feeding a renal compromised specimen will further cause the renal function of such specimens to decline.
As for ambient temperatures within rooms housing Drys and within their enclosures, I too believe 84*F is too high, but one must realize the core body temperature of an animal maintained at such an ambient temperature is going to be lower then the ambient temperature of a room. Personally, I find that an ambient temperature of 73* - 75* to be the happy medium within my collection, while allowing the snakes to thermoregulate, as indicated by Rob, by utilizing a quality radiant heat panel at one end of the enclosure, though warming the entire room for a few hours each day appears to work as well.
As I have said in the past, there is no single correct way to keep and breed Drys and I find it a shame some feel the need to post negative remarks whenever someone shares their methods and thoughts. I further believe we all share the same goals and concerns and believe it is in our best interest and the interest of the animals we keep to keep discussions civil. I believe we should all try to do our best to respect the ideas and viewpoints of those who harbor perspectives which differ from our own, so long as such subscribe to the realm of sound critical thought and harbor a high degree of logic, both o which I believe can be found within Robert’s post…

Best regards, from another small and humble Dry enthusiast,

Jeff

-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Hi Jeff,

I understand and agree with what you said regarding breathing and metabolism, except I'm lost on one point-
if the water loss through the skin is a passive mechanism, wouldn't living in a humid environment reduce water loss through the skin, especially if there is a high gradient, e.g., from the subdermis-skin out to humid air? cells are somewhere around 65-75% water, what is typical southeastern humidity (if that is the proper relationship)?

on another note, will you have any office hours thursday or friday so I can try to reach you?

thanks,

dave

Good to see you on the “Dryside”, Dave,

Actually, species within humid environments lose more water through their skin via evaporative loss then species residing within arid climates, as arid species have evolved to this regard, while those within humid environments have not really incurred a need to evolve in this manner. Hence, a Drymarchon spp. would perish quite quickly within a desert environment, due to evaporative water loss and dehydration, whereas an arid species, let us say C. c cerastes, would not perish of evaporative water loss within an extremely humid environment, but would suffer and eventually perish of respiratory infection.
While it may appear, at first glance, my thinking was skewed, when you toss in genetics and the impact environment have upon such, it actually makes sense and there is much research to support this.
I have been out of the office all week and only have sporadic use of a phone and internet service, at least until Monday…

Best regards,

Jeff
Dave,

Actually, species within humid environments loss more water through evaporative loss then species residing within arid climates

-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I have pondered the following, but lack the scientific knowledge. Since much indigo/cribo habitat is near or directly adjacent to salt water or even brackish water, what is the likelyhood of them utilizing this as a drinking source, and what would one expect to see physiologically as a result???

Dear Dave,

Eastern Indigo Snakes have been studied physiologically and they have been found to transpire water through their skin at a much greater rate than other species. If I can, later tonight I might be able to dig through my literature stack to give you a reference, although James Kaehn or Jeff Snodgres may have reference citations on the tips of their tongues.

Transpiration meaning evaporative water loss, to be distinguished from perspiration (secretion of liquid water), which we all are familiar with. The skin of Indigo Snakes is simply more "porous" in all ways. This can be seen in reverse as well, as these animals will absorb water/chemicals/drugs directly through their skin much more readily than other species.

Robert Bruce
robert.bruce@sbcglobal.net

Robert,
thanks for the response, it is always good to learn something new. if you have the time to find the links I would love to read them.

daveb

Lets face it.

Beginners make mistakes.

So do "pros" who have been "Doing this for ten years"

We all do.

Having said that, and having KEPT EASTERN INDIGOS since about 1994, and having bred them sucessfully since 1995, I STILL am learning new things every day. But things that I have allready learned, that are tried and true and have stood the test of time, dont get reviewed over and over.They work, both for the snake and for myself. So I do not modify them.

Other things I am open to interpretation to and always willing to learn others methods. More than one way to skin a cat. Seemingly.

*Now*

I get letters...weekly, asking me questions about Easterns. Everything from who to buy from,to whats a "fair" price, to why, I dont feed chicken necks, to if these snakes are hard to keep.

And I answer them. Gladly. Even if you dont buy one from me,as I am NOT the biggest breeder of these beasts. I am the MOST HANDSOME breeder of these beasts, true, but NOT the biggest ;^)

And I tell people that ask me if they are easy to keep, that if they have NOT kept many/any snakes before, then perhaps purchasing a snake that is LESS EXPENSIVE would be more prudent, as the mistakes we ALL MAKE or have MADE(Including mass producers of this snake) might be prevented simply by "cutting" ones teeth on a less expensive model, wherein if it expires from MISTAKES or MISINFORMATION on the part of the keeper, it wont cost the equivilant of a Months bloody rent. And a rather RARE snake wont be wasted, as there are only so many of them as compared to the tons of corn snakes or boas or kingsnakes that abound in our hobby.(Sorry P.E.T.A,people but not all snakes have the same value or rarity.)

Does that make it an ELITIST MATTER? ------------->No
Does that mean that if you have the money and inclination and the desire to keep one of these handsome serpents, you should be able to do it. Well, yes it does. Everything is allowed, but only some things are BENEFICIAL.

But it doesnt mean that a new Eastern Indigo keeper wont make mistakes, ESPECIALLY if they HAVENT kept many/any snakes previous to this. And again, those mistakes could end up being financially costly as well as destroying a rather rare snake.

And what it means is that I dont have an urge to sell you one. So, there is no allterior motive behind my words. I lose not one dollar if you ignore my advice, and I make not one dollar if you take it. Enough said.

Robert Bruce hit the nail on the head when he mentions the need for constant water availability.

In my experience, temps that are at 84 degrees are TOO hot and cause distress. A thermal gradient is NECESSARY for success with this species.

In my experience, cages that are TOO large for neonates, esp without hideboxes, cause the snake a GREAT deal of stress.

In my experieence, people that haven't KEPT snakes before can make terrible mistakes with Eastern Indigos, which can be both costly and wastefull . Better to "cut their teeth" with the Indigos natural prey(Cornsnakes) Does this question their intelligence? No, it merely illustrates that ALL of US have made mistakes, often early in our tenure as reptile breeders/keepers. The cost of the mistake is what I am mentioning.

And lastly, Eastern Indigo prices reflect a MARKET. It cant be controlled, and will overinflate it self until people stop buying, I suppose.

Finally...I agree with Robert Carmichael, both he(and I) are just guppies in a pool full of whale sharks. We're not worthy
But, being the "small guy" has its advantages.

Like honesty. Or at least impartiality.

Fredrick Albury

I have been keeping them since '70... ;0)

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Is this a scene out of "Napoleon Dynamite".

Just funnin'

Good to have your wisdom a mouse click away!

They had to get their ideas somewhere! ;0)

Thanks,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I think a beginner might make a better indigo keeper in one respect. They are more likely to listen to advice about the needs of their snake than someone who has kept boids or other snakes.

I recall a very knowledgeable snake keeper posting here not too long ago who wisely asked for advice on the dry he suddenly acquired.

He got some great replies and ran to turn down his temps, if I recall correctly.

Not everyone will ask, and some won't listen. I think this thread might save some snakes down the road though.

Though I have not kept Drymarchon couperi, I do own a pair of Drymarchon corais and I would not personally recommend one to a beginner. Let's face it, most beginner reptile keepers get their first pet snake because they think it is cool, and most are not ready for the responsibility of a large colubrid species such as Drymarchon couperi. Also, there is very little literature available about the Drymarchon genus, certainly not as much as there is about some of the smaller colubrids, which means that the person will probably have never read about them and have no idea as to how to care for them. The simple fact that Drymarchon require such massive enclosures is a good reason why they are not beginner snakes. Not to mention the fact that they are far more expensive than your average corn snake or kingsnake.

That said. Drymarchon are excellent captives if given the proper care, and in some cases a dedicated beginner will provide the proper care. I believe Drymarchon are neither beginner snakes or advanced snakes, but rather somewhere in between. They are snakes for the dedicated keeper, not snakes for the guy who wants to show off to his friends how cool he is because he has a pet snake. And though I wouldn't say they are bad snakes for younger beginners ( example: I'm 15 and mine are fat and healthy), they are simply not good snakes for the beginner who doesn't understand the responsibility needed to care for a high maintenance snake.
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Roy Blodgett

1.1 Drymarchon corais
0.1 Coluber mormon
1.0 Masticophis flagellum piceus (black phase)
1.1 Lampropeltis getula californiae (desert phase)
0.1 Candoia aspera (red phase)
0.1 Corytophanes cristatus
1.1 Pogona vitticeps (snow and red/gold)
1.0 Iguana iguana

Good to have you posting again Robert!

btw this is your K1 male a.k.a. Flame

Dear James,

Nice to see my name up next to one of my "offspring." I can use the exposure, as I have many females stuffed with eggs right now.

Looks like "flame" has been well-fed.

Robert Bruce.

Well, I agree that the care requirements are not overwhemingly intimidating.

But I think the possibility of taking a bite from an 8 Ft. snake rules out Drys from being for true beginners.

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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.