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Coastal Plains Feeding Strategies and Ne

Tony D Jan 24, 2007 08:02 AM

In my work with coastal plains milk snakes I have noted over the years that smaller breeding females produce fewer eggs per clutch (not surprising) but also larger eggs and neonates than the progeny of more “robust” aggressive feeding females. I often wondered if there was not some kind of survival mechanism going on in this instance. I fleshed out the thought like this:

In a food rich environment the survival of an organism might best be served by producing a large number of offspring to exploit the resource and increase odds of at least some surviving predation.

In less food rich environments the survival of an organism might be best served by producing fewer but large neonates. These larger neonates would not only be better able to exploit scarce resources, but would be better able to disperse in the search for them and, given larger size would have an advantage up moving up the food web instead of through it.

I don’t know if there is any truth to this theory but when working with a small species one tends to fantasize about ways to increase the size of hatchlings. Other than for the first month out of hibernation, I do not “power feed” my coastals and as a result my females generally lay 6 – 8 eggs per year. This is far fewer than what many report especially from northern populations such as NJ stock. The up side for me is that an appreciable number of the neonates are large enough to take new born pinks right out of the egg and I can generally get the others up to size by tease feeding mouse tails twice a week for 6 – 7 weeks.

Since adopting this strategy I have not lost a single coastal neonate to not being able to get them to feed. As I’ve not done any controlled experiments, I’m not sure if this is the result of a real size difference in the neonates, having more time per neonate to get them feeding or a combination of both. The up side however is that coastals have fallen off the hart to work with list.

Replies (14)

pweaver Jan 24, 2007 09:29 AM

Tony,
You mentioned "smaller breeding females"....can you tell me what weight you would consider a minimum for breeding a female coastal.

The Tyrrell that I got from you in 2005 was a little small, so I kept feeding it this winter and it's been eating like a horse. Now it's fairly large, but I'm not quite sure if it's large enough. Also I don't know what effect not brumating her might have, though she has been exposed to less daylight.

Love that picture you posted...
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

Tony D Jan 24, 2007 10:10 AM

Paul I was once told that 22" was the minimum size to safely breed females and I've use that as a rough guideline ever since but don't have any weights to go off of. Instead I rely on body condition length. I look for females to be just slightly heavier than I might expect a wild animal to be. Average females JUST miss this mark prior to their second winter so I generally don't breed them the following spring giving them another year. I guess that would make the average female about 30 - 33 months old at the time of her first breeding but equal numbers vary by as much as a year either way! My observation is simply that the faster growing and bigger females usually give me more but smaller neonates which equates to a LOT LESS time per neonate to get them going. My line of souther population coastals, which you have, at least for me have been small and generally breed their third summer. This will be breeding season five for the main female and she is still only 26". In contrast I have a CB05 F2 female from crossing Calvert to St Mary's stock that is 23".

pweaver Jan 24, 2007 10:29 AM

I don't think she's quite up to 22" yet so I reckon I'll give her some more time. Too bad though because I picked up an adult hypo male to breed her to (she's a het).
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

BobS Jan 24, 2007 09:44 AM

Hi Tony. Interesting post and nice pic. Nice to hear you don't consider them hard snakes anymore. I tried my hand at Syspila and got too frustrated at the tiny babies and gave up.
Bob.

Tony D Jan 24, 2007 10:17 AM

I think to successfully produce the smaller NA milks you really have to love them. Its also important not to over produce! They all take a little TLC in the first couple of months and if you have more neonates than your time allows failure is likely. Personally I find it kind of gratifying working with them. I mean anyone can throw fuzzies at hatchling Hondurans; not that there is anything wrong with that! LOL

BobS Jan 24, 2007 10:20 AM

You are a patient man. lol. Are you going to the florida expo again next year? How did you make out with those Eastern Kings?
Bob.

Tony D Jan 24, 2007 10:59 AM

Yes and good!

terryd Jan 24, 2007 11:04 AM

I think the statement that Tony made is very true. You really have to love these smaller North American milks to get them going out of the egg.
I like that they can be a challenge, it's that much more rewarding when they get going. Don't get me wrong though, I've been pretty frustrated at times.

-Dell

Pale milk, Bighorn county, MT.
Image

terryd Jan 24, 2007 11:10 AM

One more Montana Pale, Powder river county.
Image

Nokturnel Tom Jan 24, 2007 10:46 AM

I have always really liked those, what do you think they eat in the wild when they are weeks old? I lost a few tiny Speckled Kings this year that just could not seem to get going even after they tackled a pinky or two. The thing with them was I even got 15 eggs from a 30 inch female... I got about the same sized clutch from 2 much larger females. Those Coastals sure are nice looking. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tony D Jan 24, 2007 11:04 AM

Tom in the wild they likely take skinks and a favored food source. As I once did, some breeders import ground skinks from LA to get their stock up and running. IMHO this risks introducing reptile specific parasites and causes the neonates to imprint on their preferred natural food over rodents. Mine never even get to smell a skink and as a result I believe become better rodent feeders the rest of their lives.

terryd Jan 24, 2007 11:27 AM

I have tried skinks and lizards also, with out much success. I have done o.k. w/ scenting from Gerbils and w/c mice though.
Tony how much force feeding will you go into w/ a none feeder?

-Dell

Jefferson county, Syspila, my stock but produced by J. Hardwick
Image

Tony D Jan 24, 2007 12:02 PM

I use the center third of an adult mouse tail at a frequency of twice a week and vitaminize them with Repti-Cal and Herp-Vite once a week. They’ll start taking newborn pinks after their second shed or about 6 – 7 weeks of this. So far this has been a pretty fool proof system. All of my difficulties are in getting some holdouts to take f/t over live.

Sunherp Jan 26, 2007 12:31 PM

Tony,

Very observant! If you have the time, there have been several papers written on this subject (resource allocation and corresponding offspring size) that you can sometimes find pdf of on the internet. Interestingly, there is also a correlation between offspring size/number and the resource (prey) availability at different times of the year!

-Cole

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