Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well here is my current layout. The gauge you see on the back if the thermometer. Which at its location is around 77*F. I used plastic wrap on 3/4 of the top screen. I put some card board over that just as some insulation. Above it what you cant see in the image is the humidity gauge. Ive managed to keep it at a steady 64 - 65%. I have his soak bowl in the middle. A bit to the cooler side but still getting light to stay warm is his hiding rock. On the far right hand side I have a ceramic dish with water / moss in it. I also have moss around it. Is there such thing as too much moss?? Its also on top of the bottom heating pad. I figure with the heat comeing from below. It will keep that area nice and damp. I didnt want to keep the soak bowl on top of the bottom heater cause the water was getting a bit warm. It should be good in its location. Mind you the top right now is a temporary setup. Ill evetually have a plexiglass top made. Which Im sure will be much more effcient.

How does it look? Also the branch goes from the moss sider up over the soak bowl and on top of the hiding rock. He actually enjoys using it.

77*F in the middle with a central humidity level of 65%. Not bad?
I figured if he needs more moisture he can go into the moss which he does from time to time. He probably like the heat / damp combo.

Am I on the right track here?? Let me know. Thanks!

Trying something. I lowered my humidity gauge down to about 1 inch off the substrate. It instantly rose up to 76- 78% humidity. So by keeping it high I was getting a false reading. I also totally covered the top and removed the heat lamp. I want to see if the under tank heater if enough to keep the tanks central temp mid 70's. If so I may have something here. Ill report back in about 1 to 2 hours and let you know what my readings are.

Right now withthe top covered leaving only a small 2" by 5" opening for air the current temp is 77*F with a humidity of 77%. Well see how much effect enclosing the top 98% and removing the 60watt redlight will have.

*cross's fingers *

Triton,
...See if you can get an accurate temperature measurement right down on the floor of the cage where the snake spends most of it's time. Move from the warm end to the cool end (30 minutes later) and see if you get a gradient from the low 70s on the floor in the cool end to the high 70s or low 80s on the warm end. With a long cage like your 20L there is the advantage that if you do set up a temperature gradient from one end to the other there should be plenty of room in between the extremes for the snake to find the ideal temperature. That is so long as the ideal temperature spot is not right out in the open. These snakes are shy at times and will stay in a too cool or too warm hiding spot seeking the security rather than the ideal temperature. If you had a cage 5 feet long with an even temperarure gradient from one end to the other and plenty of good hiding spots around the cage you could have the warm end into the 90s and the cool end in the 50s and the snake would seek out and mostly stay in the area of the cage that it felt most comfortable. I use an IR temperature gun and cannot recommend them enough. With mine I often check on the individual snakes and usually find them in a part of the cage that keeps their body temperature from 73 to 76 degrees.
Jeff

>>Trying something. I lowered my humidity gauge down to about 1 inch off the substrate. It instantly rose up to 76- 78% humidity. So by keeping it high I was getting a false reading. I also totally covered the top and removed the heat lamp. I want to see if the under tank heater if enough to keep the tanks central temp mid 70's. If so I may have something here. Ill report back in about 1 to 2 hours and let you know what my readings are.
>>
>>Right now withthe top covered leaving only a small 2" by 5" opening for air the current temp is 77*F with a humidity of 77%. Well see how much effect enclosing the top 98% and removing the 60watt redlight will have.
>>
>>*cross's fingers *

Well I got my humidity up to 80 almost 85%. The tempature mid cage is mid 70's. He then decided to climb up and curl up on the branch I have in there. He then yawned about 5 times in a row over about 2 min. I noticed him with his mouth open a little.. I hope its not bad. Im sure hes a bit stressed due to me changing everything around. For now I opened the cage up a bit to put the light back on for a bit. He didnt have any " yawning " issues so to say until I rose the humidity to 80%

Normal? Please let me know. Thank you.

Well he only had his mouth open for a minute so Im not going to be concerned. I turned like lamp off and replaced the full cover about 4 hours ago. Without the heat lamp the center tank temp is 74*f so assume its warmer on the heated side and cooler on the non-heated side. The humidity is finally at 83%. You can see a thin film of condinsation on the glass. So Im sure hes happy about that. Looks like the under the tank heater is actually enough to keep the temp at a stable degree. That and the full cover is working nicely!

Just thought I'd mention what I use for my BRB's in case you wanted to try it.

I'm using 60 gallon reptile aquariums with split tops. I keep one side of the top covered(makinkg about 60-65% covered if you count the mid section). For heating I use a belly heater(always on) and a heat lamp on during the day. I keep a dogfood bowl on the cold end filled with fresh water. On the hot end partially overlapping the bellyheater I place a glass bread loaf pan filled with water(for humitity). I use a roughly 2 inch layer of moss for the substrate across the tank. The only disadvantage of the moss is you have to hunt out the droppings. I spray down and soak the substrate once to twice a week as needed. There is a hide in the box but they virtually never use it. Instead they are almost always either burrowed in the substrate or coiled under the dogfood bowl.

This setup keeps the humidity high but also gives them a humidity gradient depending on where in/arround the moss they hide.

It also gives them a 10-20 degree temperature gradient accross the cage depending on the time of the year.

It's a little more costly and work but gives the animals a great degree of personal control/flexibility.

BTW the moss substrate is much more affordable if you have a nursery that will get/sell you bales of the loose moss.

Well I checked his set up this morning. Mid temp was 75*F with a humidity of 85%. There is ALOT of condinsation on all of the glass. To the points where I can barely see him now. lol

This brings up a new question. Hes not really going on the ground or in the shelter at all. Hes been crawling around on the grape branch. He was curled up on it all last night. Then this morning Ive watching him go down one end and up the other about 3 times in roughly 10min. Now he kinda haning off it hovering over the soaking dish and then kinda standing up in the air a bit and just looking around.

This normal?? I though they were more shy and would be using the shelter. Is it possible that its too damp on the supstarate???

Thanks again, sorry for all the questions. I just want him to be happy / safe.

Where exactly are you measuring temps now...floor temps are critical. Not sure if you've moved your temp gauge or not. If still midway up cage then the floor may be too hot. That would certainly explain why the BRB is climbing off the floor.

They love damp substrate, I make damp moss hide boxes for mine and they practically live in them.

>>Well I checked his set up this morning. Mid temp was 75*F with a humidity of 85%. There is ALOT of condinsation on all of the glass. To the points where I can barely see him now. lol
>>
>>This brings up a new question. Hes not really going on the ground or in the shelter at all. Hes been crawling around on the grape branch. He was curled up on it all last night. Then this morning Ive watching him go down one end and up the other about 3 times in roughly 10min. Now he kinda haning off it hovering over the soaking dish and then kinda standing up in the air a bit and just looking around.
>>
>>This normal?? I though they were more shy and would be using the shelter. Is it possible that its too damp on the supstarate???
>>
>>Thanks again, sorry for all the questions. I just want him to be happy / safe.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
12.25 BRB
12.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Yeah mine are friendly when handled but unless I dig em out they stay under the damp moss all day. They do come out at night but only when it's pitch black so the only times I see them crawling arround is when I turn the rooms light on for some reason during the night.

On a side note I've actually had more success keeping better humidity by having a little ventilation. Arround 40% of the top of my enclosures is open screen. This allows me to keep the moss substrate much damper without growing mold. Every time I tried a less ventilated setup or a denser substrate I ended up developing mold to quickly. With my current setup I can leave it as is just adding fresh water and spraying for months. Only thing have to make sure of is that you clean up any defecation.

In a way my setup is similar, damp place with drier place to dissapate into. Each of my cage sections is lined with newspaper and dimpled craft paper. Each ]section also has a sweaterbox sized hide with access holes in the sides. Inside the hides is a layer of damp peat moss and a layer of damp green moss. And there's a large water bowl on top of each hide. The cage sections have a 2"round vent hole near the top on the sides. This has worked great for me to maintain a nice damp place (inside hide) along with a drier area and limit mold.

Note: old pics, I have since installed Radiant Heat Panels in all sections of both of my oak BRB breeding cages. Also, most of the hides in the pics didn't have moss. Guess I need to take new pics?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.24 BRB
12.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Since I use uth's on my viv. my plexiglass controls my ventilaton thus creating my humidity and I only spray it at shed time other than that I never spray. It is much drier on my cold side but I only have that little condensation because of the hot air rising and traveling to the cold side meeting the cold air up top and not on the floor. Most of mine prefer that cold side burrowed or under that water bowl.
Bob

Bob,
....It is impressive that you recognize and understand the airflow and microclimates inside your tanks. Most people never grasp the concept that what their thermometer says at one spot in a cage may have little to do with the temperature at other points in the cage. I am not sure but your snakes may be trying to tell you something by preferring that cold side borrowed or under the water bowl. They must like that spot for some reason. Temperature, humidity, security or maybe they think it would just be a great place to ambush a mouse?
Jeff

>>Since I use uth's on my viv. my plexiglass controls my ventilaton thus creating my humidity and I only spray it at shed time other than that I never spray. It is much drier on my cold side but I only have that little condensation because of the hot air rising and traveling to the cold side meeting the cold air up top and not on the floor. Most of mine prefer that cold side burrowed or under that water bowl.
>>Bob

They are usually on the cold side and when it is warm earlier in Nov. I unplugged the heat (live by New orleans) and supplied no heat for about three weeks and they still chose under the bowl. Jeff their head is under the middle of it too and not in ambush position but relaxing. They always choose that spot after feeding I guess to rest but choose the hide or the moss around usually when they are in shed but not always. I do spray when they are in shed and 2 or 3 sprays every two days for a week and sometimes since they have the moisture I provided them they sometimes stay under the bowl. They usually feel cold to the touch also but will check that out next time but I just fed them a couple days ago so they put the Do Not Disturb sign out for me on the window. Jeff I also have a rescue rainbow boa that I wanted to show you but as I mentioned I just fed him and wouldn't you believe it- I see his white belly under the 9 inch water bowl. I don't know his locale but it is either a brb or a prb. I specifically remember him saying gaigei and not cenchria too. I saw this poor fella and felt bad for him- at five months old he was pushing 15 inches very dark, looked like the last kid picked at the playground with regards to his crescents but I knew he would take care of my mouse population if it grew to large to fast. I saw him at the breeder's house and knew I would take him the moment he bit me on the hand. I just figured he wanted to play TAG your it haha He is very dark and the crescents are very blurry looking and he was a weird eater. I took him home and fed him (7 grams big fuzzy) about 10 days later and he bit, constricted and left it out. I don't watch none of my snakes eat but I do watch it until the mouse dies but don't give no live adults for injury sake only f/k. So after he didn't eat I waited about 2 and half more and fed him another big fuzzy small hopper 8 grams or so and he ate it. Two weeks later I tried to feed him he bit, constricted and left it again another hopper by then because he had already shed. Three weeks later I fed him and he ate and is now on mouse over population control. He eats every week and is always climbing at night unless he just ate. I will get pics soon I think he is going into shed again too. So far he has eaten six times for me and has shed on 12-16 and 1-3 and looks to be once again. Take care and the best of luck this year. Here's a pic of some and the only babies I will be having this year-just born about six hours ago Looks like a ten course meal in about 24 days or so
Bob

Your setup looks good. The only thing that concerns me is your heat. You've mentioned several times that the temperature in the middle of the cage (off the ground, on the back glass), is in the mid-high 70's.

What about the temperature on the floor of the cage where the heater is?

I haven't seen anything in your posts about any kind of control for the heater. if it's one of those heaters that sticks to the bottom of the cage then IT IS GETTING TOO HOT!!! It needs to be controlled with either a dimmer switch or a thermostat.

If you posted this info and I missed it, sorry. Just ignore the above.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Triton you should listen to some of the suggestions that are being offered to you. Jeff, Mike and Dave are very knowledgeable and are a big part of this forum. They mentioned that you need to ditch that 60 watt light, that rubbermat, move your gauges, and control the HEAT. They don't need basking light so use that uth you got. First off control it because if not then it runs at 100%. Second if you have the top completely covered then condensation will run the sides and saturate the mat on the uth. You need to find the happy medium with the condensation too (look at my pic). I only have condensation on my cold side because hot air from the left has traveled up and over to the right (from limited ventilation) and condensates over the cold side.

Check out how much of the screen top I got covered on this one

Since water heats up easier than rubber your temp is gonna rise considerably. Then the water will be old, musty and stagnite to some degree until you clean it. For instance I use 11x14 heat pads on my 20L's (don't cover more than half as a rule of thumb) and a 4x6 on my 20H because of less floor space and it is 24 inches high. I plugged my pad in the wall with no control and do you know what I got? My 4x6 pad reads this

WOW!!!!!!!Burning hot!!!!!!!!!!! Put it on a control for your animal at least. I showed pics of my setup (almost identical) and still your gauges are not correct. My pic for instance are in the corner exclusively on the hot side same pic as first one

I then pulled out my temp gun and found out that under the coconut was 82.5 and I had a high of 87.2 in the moss surrounding it (I believe this is because the moss is damp and water heats up better than moss). But my gauge reads 78 though- it is not accurate like a temp gun or thermostat with a probe. If you control ventilation your uth will make humidity. Don't believe me, tie a newspaper bag over a hand see how long it takes to start sweating-see it works and this is only our body heat just imagine the 108 at least with the pad and no water added and with water- I would climb high too. I not trying to discourage you in anyway but just take the advice given and try it out. I just busted the myth that uth's need heat control so get one. Hope this is helpful and it is privelage to keep these animals. I treat all my animals like gold even my feeders. They get wheels for exercise (burns weight but they love it), coconuts for refuge and feedings twice a day. Here's a couple of pics



When I feed my 9 snakes (one at a time though), I use a feeding tub and clean you tub or viv. out when they are in there. If you feed in yours, then wet substrate or moss is gonna get on the mouse and that is not good. That's is one of the reasons breeders use paper towels for easy clean up, spot checking and they can feed in there. Just here these guys out because they know what they are talking about.
Bob

I had a custom plexiglass top made today. Similar to your pics above. I also picked up another thermometer. On the cooler side Im sitting at around 72*F on the warmer side floor Lv near the heat pad Im getting about 76*F. Seems that the tank mat absorbs alot of the heat radiating out of the bottom tank heater. I can put my hand on it and its warm, but nothing out of control. I have like I pointed out earlier a dish with water / moss in it also on the side with the heat pad to promote humidity. For fun I got some river stones from the store. " washed them first " and threw them in there. Make it look a little more realistic for him. Below are some
attachments of my new setup with the support / advice from you guys.

Triton your top looks good and all you need now is a temp gun. It is loads of fun with a LASER and it is the next best thing to having your snake poop it in the water bowl for easy cleanup I plugged my uth into a dimmer and let it heat the glass up to about 82ish and marked my knob and receptacle for a reference point. This would just apply to your mat that's all, if that uth is stuck to the glass then it will heat that glass then the mat then your snake if you chooses to accept it haha. Silicone the edges of your uth to the surrounding glass it is contact with a thick bead. Use 100% silicone rubber sealant (good for up to 400 degrees) and I also use this to secure my probe in my rack on the flexwatt. Just be careful you don't cover the end of the probe. I can't say enough about the stuff. If you don't your uth in a about 3 months may start coming off slightly but this will help dramatically. Well your setup looks good and don't be afraid to wait a couple weeks to feed him.
Bob