Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Frank is absolutely correct about our beloved USFW service. However, one thing I will disagree on is their interest in native reptiles. Don Hamper's case proves that wrong. Federally protected and state protected turtles and tortoises will land you in jail just as much as non native species. Gilas are also fiercely protected.

Just to give everyone a small example of what they are about.....I own Radiated Tortoises which are CITES I animals. They are not only CITES I, but also listed as an ESA animal here in the U.S. (Endangeres Species Act). This law was put into effect to protect "native" species from land developers years ago. My question is...??? Why is the US regulating an animal from state to state? While there are PLENTY of radiata to support the pet trade in Madagascar and are yet CITES I, (I can almost understand that), why are we protecting them when they aren't even from here? Hell, from what I know, there are only 600 grizzly bears in the wild and their status went from endangered to "threatened", yet we are protecting non native species here in the U.S.

Just an FYI....CITES I animals can be bought and sold all day long within the U.S.

ESA animals need the permits to travel from state to state.

Here's the part that most don't know. The USFW service gets it's funding from "felony" convictions. I personally know a guy who had never been in trouble with the law and helped a friend by bringing a gila from CA to NV 6yrs ago!!! He didn't think he did anything that serious(most U.S. citizens wouldn't have also) yet the USFW was able to prove he transported it by his own child like confession and got fined, prosectuted and now has a probation officer. For every felony the USFW can prove, they then can go to the Fed. Govt. and ask for funding for their department. The guy got fined only $1,200.00, yet the USFW service spent tens of thousand putting him through the system. (includes drug testing, DNA tests, etc....)

After I spoke with a "non-reptile" friend about this, he told me......"We got terrorist plots going on all over the world and we have to send a fleet of USFW agents to a guys house and spend thousands upon thousands over a lizard?" Pretty good outlook on things if you ask me......Anyway, thanks for letting me share, hearing my rant, and hopefully educate.

Barry

Hmmmmmmmm let me respond to the first paragraph. In the Donald bust, they were busted for albino blackrats???????? And one zoo for three babie red-eared sliders. And various such twists of violations. And for buying wild caught turtles(the FWS caught them). Is not the sin(the real violation), catching the turtles. So the ones who should have been busted where the collectors the FWS themselves. There goal is not protecting the animals, but busting people. TO PROTECT THE ANIMALS, you can only protect their habitat. Then protect the animals. They do not do this. You should know, look around you. They bust people, then allow the land to be auto malls or a food court.

A little story. FWS put an undercover agent in with some big game hunters here in Tucson. To prove his merit, that undercover agent illegally shot a big horned sheep(very endangered). In court, they explained how these bad fellas(I am sure they were bad) shot jaquars, and bighorns and all such animals, out of season or protected. The judge sat there and looked at the evidence. The only evidence was the bighorn the agent shot. The judge thought for a while and then threw the cases out. Then he explained, if you(the agent) do that again(shoot a protected species) I(the judge) will hold you responsible to the fullest extent of the law. Too bad that does not happen with reptiles.

A little more on protection. We have a few protected reptiles. You will get in trouble if they catch you with them. But, if you have an extra $50,000 bucks, you can purchase a permit to shoot a bighorn sheep. Hmmmmmmmmm consider, there are very very few bighorns and they require lots of land to live on. And these protected snakes are by the millions and live in tiny little spots that mostly are inaccessible to reach(why they think they are rare). I hope they have good reason for doing such things. Cheers

Your absolutely right. The thing that's BS is why did the judge give the agent a "pass" the first time around? I don't see any of the public/citizens getting a pass. When it's all said and done its about the money, funding, and getting their brownie buttons. Simple as that. I think if the American people knew more about these things (big horns & crossing a gila from CA to NV) and seeing how much money they spend to prosecute such things, they'd go crazy seeing where their tax dollars go. It's truly riduculous. Oh well..........

How much time and money they spend to set up these busts(already captive animals). To do these stings, open businesses, takes years of many agents send them undercover, buying and selling, etc. Lets see, they spend hundreds of millions doing these things.

The million dollar question is, What if they spent that same money and put their agents in the field so the animals do not be poached in the first place????????????? This one baffles me.

In my own experience, I have been in the field for many decades. Last summer I was asked to show my hunting lic. I gladly did, after all, I bought them for decades just to show them to a fish and game fella. I am so glad I finally had too. Lets see, over forty years and one fish and game encounter. I sure must be hard to find. Funny, but i did not have any animals on me. I did have some pics, hahahahahahaha a gila pic too.

In fact, I would think it would be far more fun to bushwack poachers in the act, then bust a fella whos only buying and selling already captive animals(the donald bust) Lord knows, the donald is not a field guy, hes over 300 pounds.

For instance, you buy and sell turtles. My bet is, some of those were poached somewhere. So why aren't you busted. Not to say your doing anything wrong. But the point is, they go after people for reasons other then the actual conservation of the animals. They are just playing human games, because they can. Plain and simple.

The thing is, thats not why we pay our taxes. We pay them to keep our national treasures and the land they are on, intact and in exsistance, FOR OUR USE. those three words are important. Its in the constitution you know.

Not bust people for albino blackrats and whitesided hognose. They are non natural morphs. Kinda like busting you for your poodle, you know, its a endangered wolf. Cheers

>Kinda like busting you for your poodle, you know, its a endangered wolf<

LOL, Frank I like where your goin' with all this, but poodle = wolf???????????Muahahahahahaaaaa!!!
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

It was meant to have a little humor. And make a little point.

I do understand the difficulty of their task. But to waste time, effort and money on after the fact, needless things is sad.

The effort would be better spend on the thousands of species that actually need help. You know, BUY the land and do not let it get destroyed. After all is said and done, that is the only conversation. Cheers

In situations where DWF takes captive animals from their owners....what is done with the animals?

It depends on the situation, but usually most are destroyed. Once they have them, you have a snow balls chance in hell of getting them back. Unless you have the time and money to devote to the legal system, but usually by the time you have a ruling in your favor, the animals are usually dead through negligence of the people FWC pawned them off to.

In a case where turtles and tortoises are involved, if the USFW agent is into turtles and tortoises (I've hear ALOT are), then some I'd bet end up in their own backyards. The ones they don't want typically go to TSA (Turtle Survival Alliance) and are given to members and are not supposed to be resold.

FR, as for the Donald, I had heard that his bust was for Blandings turtles and Spotted Turtles which he had been buying illegally for years. While I do think they hung him, I really couldn't see Don doing a year in the pokey over ratsnakes and hognose. Either way, they have an agenda and like I said....It all comes down to making the bust so they can validate their existence to the Federal Govt. and request funding. It's just a matter of numbers & quotas, not animals.

Your right, some of the turtles and tortoises I sell are wild caught and some are captive bred & hatched. It's up to me to know the law on sales. Even if I sell a Loggerhead Musk to someone in FL (where they are protected), yet I'm in CA, that can be read as a FL sale and an interstate violation which the feds can take over. So, I buy and sell to states which can legally buy them and I can legally sell them. Same would go for Cagles Maps in TX. However, I can sell TX maps back to TX because they are not protected. Sometimes I wish they were monitors so that I could send them anywhere in the U.S. without a care. (Unless of course it was a Komodo..HA HA)

Barry

Yes it was blandings that were collected by WFS and confiscations. The reason for my rant. Protected wild animals need to stay wild is of benefit. Allowing them to be collected to bust somebody is STUPID. The FWS collecting them to bust somebody should be against the law. If I was the judge, those agents would have been in the next dorm(jail) over from Don.

My other point was, many of the wild caught turtles you buy and sell here, were poached in other countries. While they are legal here. They are a violation of the Lacie act. But it your case, no one cares. And rightfully so, food market poached turtles are already DONE, as far as nature is concerned.

Both lead to the point of FWS and other conseritory agencies, ONCE they are out of nature, the game is over. ALL and any actions after an animal is taken from nature IS OF NO benefit.

THE POINT, FWS agents should be posted by the creeks and ponds to catch and prevent poachers(not catch the dang turtles to catch the poachers). Not spend millions on messing with the end user. It simply is a very very dumb way to do conservation.

I suppose I am a dreamer. But I was under the impression I pay taxes for these agencies to do what their suppose to do, conserve wildlife, not play silly games of cops and robbers. Cheers

110% absolutely correct!!! Taking animals from the wild or even using captive animals to try and bust someone is corruption in itself and also borderline entrapment.

Just another short story....I personally know a gentleman who found a desert tortoise on the road. He picked it up, put it in his truck and drove it a mile down a dirt road and let it go. Once he got back on the main drag, he got pulled over by F&W agents who proceded to tell him that they were going to fine him for picking up a federally protected species. He told them that he was moving it off the busy road. They remarked that they know, they "put it there". He boastfully told them to take him to court.....They didn't.......They would rather let a protected species get run over than have someone save it and put it off the side of road.......Hmmmmm.....

Barry

That's in line with the law that you can't do anything to "disturb" an ESA-protected species, including touch it for any reason. The situation doesn't really undermine the law (maybe we should have better auto regulations through areas with protected species? ), but it does say a lot about the officers. Jerks with the mindset claiming too much of nothing better to do? How common is that.

That's the point FR and I are trying to make.....They disturbed the ESA animal first. Why are agents getting to break the law to make a bust? Same with FR's story about the Bighorn sheep. They are supposed to be officers of the law and uphold that. Not bend them or break the laws they uphold to prey upon a good samaritan. Hell, even mine, yours, or FR's grandparents would have done the same thing.

I managed to miss that part in your post. I'll be off to practice my reading skills