Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone had a bad experience switching substrates? I just switched to sand and I dont know if he likes it or not. It's like he's trying to get out.

We've used both sand and shelf liner (the thicker, soft variety), and our beardie appears to prefer sand. Right now he actually has both in his enclosure, a raised platform with shelf liner where we keep the water dish and feed him his veggies, and sand in the lower part (making up about 2/3 of the floor space) where we keep his hiding/basking rock.

It may also be that he didn't like the temperature of the sand initially. We just changed our sand tonight and had kept it in the garage where it's quite cold this time of year. Had we just put it in his enclosure right away, it would have been way too cold for him. Conversely, if you heat it first (as we did) in the oven to get the moisture out of it, an immediate placement would have been too hot (it probably took about an hour for it to cool off after we placed the sand in his house).

I've alwys used reptile carpet till my Dragon's are at least 12" then I change to sand. When they first experience it sometimes it's like they won't go near it and stay on the basking spot or other furniture. I think it's just because it's new and their not comfortable with it yet.

One of the best things about sand is that it holds heat very well. I really adds a lot of temperature stability to the enclosure. One of the bad things is it takes literally days to heat from room temp to vivarium temp. Putting a 2" base in my 4 x 2 tanks takes 100lbs of sand my bigger tanks take 150lbs. Although I've thought about it I just don't know how I could warm all that in my oven. lol.

I'd give it a few days.

if i were you id switch to something else. sand can be bad for dragons. it can get into their eyes and cause infections, not to mention impaction. doesnt happen as much with adults but it still can happen. plus sand smells, is a mess, and collects alot of bacteria in it. if you choose to keep the sand use washed, sifted, childrens play sand from like home depot or lowes. but have fun with the dust and alergies you will get sifting through it. it also makes your dragon looks dirty all of the time. my dragons colors were hidden under layers of sand dust until i moved them into new cages with the shelf liner, then they shed out the old skin and i saw colors i couldnt believe.

id stick with using duck brand shelf liner. this has been my best bet. easier to wash, doesnt hold bacteria in it like sand, not dirty, no health risks.

but yes, when a dragon has his/her environment switched on them all of a sudden they do act odd, it takes them time to get used to it.
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Beach Beardies

2.4. bearded dragons
1.0. Turquoise x Sunburst Veiled Chameleon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

I have to agree with beachbeardies. Sand causes impaction, and lots of irritation. Best substrates are tile, slate, newspaper,and papertowels. I use paper towels, cheap easy and efficient! I would highley recommend taking them off sand immediatley!! For beardies health reasons!

Dragon's like to dig. Part of their nature. Can't do that with shelf liner, paper towels or newspapers. Right now 2 of mine are "dug in" under 1/2 logs for the winter. I'd use a sandy soil like they have in Australia if that was feasable. lol.

Wow! I've never had any of those problems. And neither have many others. I use Lighthouse Brand Sand from Toys r us and don't sift it. There is no dust even when I dump it in. And my Dragons are certainly not dirty and there is no smell at all from any of my enclosures. Shelf liner is certainly not bacteria free! unless your disinfecting it every day. lol. I change all the sand every 60 days and remove the soiled sand right away.

Sorry but if you have never heard of impaction or irritation, i suggest you do alot more research on bearded dragons! It's a common with people who use sand! Which is the worst substrate to use!

Obviously I have heard of both! I don't put babies on sand even though many do. Impaction fro sand is not an issue with adult dragons.

Eye irritaion is rare and can be caused by many things. Often it is blamed on sand. Most of the time this not the cause.

False....most of the time is the reason! Beardeds and Leos are not to be on sand it's not what they are on in the wild either they are on clay lik substrates. Sand is like the sahara desert not whee you would find either of them!

Well, I give up. You know it all. Dragon's live in almost all area of Australia. From forest to almost desert. Haven't heard of any naturally occuring shelf liner. lol.

im not going to argue this subjects like some kid, but sand is the worst, end of story. every book, every csresheet, every breeder i know and talk to agrees. some still use it yes...but very very carefully. dragons are from austrailia normally, their environment there is sure as hell not sand, they dont roam the beaches. in fact most of the time in the wild they are caught in the deserty areas, which is hard rock or very hard soil, and other times they are found hiding in trees of all places.

eye irritation 99% of the time is caused by sand and the dust it creates. again, read caresheets and books first.

digging is dragons nature when the female is ready to lay eggs. other than this they barely every dig, and if they do its because they have been raised in sand almost their entire life and they just learned to do so, and may like to. but when a female is ready to lay eggs, yes she dig. thus the reason i move my female, as do most breeders, into a seperate container or cage with soil or a soil sand mixture. i just use normal soil, no sand.

and i didnt mean shelf liner is bacteria free, what i mean is it doesnt absorb bacteria into the pores of the material. and yes i do disinfect my cages, including shelf liner every other day. if you dont do so, then you shouldnt own dragons.
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Beach Beardies

2.4. bearded dragons
1.0. Turquoise x Sunburst Veiled Chameleon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

woah woah WOAH
All i did was ask for advice on his being strange when changing substrates not start a sand vs whatever argument. I like the sand. Prefer the way it looks, talked to a lot of people, its my choice. If i start having serious problems with it, I'll change. Thank you to all who said yes he will be a little strange for a few days. I will wait a few days and see if he straightens out.
IF he doesn't well, I will try something else. I was told that the stuff I had him on previously was even worse. SO thanks for the help and I will just keep an eye on him.

-sam and morwyn

I'm not going to argue the point anymore either. But, whatever your substate is, if it's not sand, when the lights go out I'll bet you hear your Beardie scratching usually in the corner of his cage.

Well, we've had our beardie mainly on sand (she's 4.5 years old) with no ill effect, and while some argue against it for juveniles, and most agree that it should not be the calcium variety (because of sharp edges), many either argue in favor of (play)sand as a suitable substrate or have no major objections to it (other than the aforementioned caveats).

A quick search yielded the following:

Melissa Kaplan's caresheet (http://www.anapsid.org/bearded.html):

"There is some debate about the best substrate. In their native environment, beardeds live in sandy desert areas. Decomposed granite or large grained sand (available as playground sand in hardware stores, as well as in pet stores and nurseries) is often used, though there have been reports of intestinal impaction. Other substrates include gravel and aquarium rock (which are more difficult to clean and disinfect), outdoor carpeting (trim loose threads), butcher paper, unprinted newsprint, paper towels and terry towels all making suitable substrates, though there is no question that the proper sand layered thickly on the bottom of the tank, with branches for climbing and basking, and rocky, ceramic, or wooden caves, and perhaps even some nonprickly succulents, make for an attractive, and relatively easy-to-maintain, vivarium. Do not use corn or walnut cob, alfalfa pellets, kitty litter, or wood shavings."

Terry McGleish's caresheet (featured here on kingsnake.com under caresheets)(http://www.kingsnake.com/gladescs/bearded/):
"Good substrates are newspaper, sand, pea rock or aquarium gravel."

Eileen Underwood (Colorado Herpetological Society),
(http://coloherp.org/careshts/lizards/beardeds.php):
"Substrate may be either a bare enclosure, paper toweling / newsprint, or sand (Play Sand, granitic or limestone sands)."

Jeremiah "Podunk" Jaeger (beardeddragon.org)(http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/caresheet/?page=2):
"For adult Dragons I prefer either the grass repti carpet or playsand. Washed playsand is much cheaper than all those fancy colored reptile sands and looks just as good. You can buy this playsand at most larger Hardware stores for under $4 for 50lbs."

Ultimately, you have to do what YOU are comfortable with, there is no single expert out there that has all the answers. If you prefer sand, use the recommended playsand type, keep it clean, only use it for adult dragons, and if you're really concerned, feed your dragon in a feeding tank or on an alternate, second substrate inside his enclosure (we built a raised platform for this purpose for ours, though that was done primarily to keep the veggies out of the sand).

One could undoubtedly dig up some caresheets to the contrary, but these were the first ones I ran across, YMMV, so please refrain from turning this into a search contest. My intent was simply to point out that there are a number of care sheets in support of sand, it is not a universally shunned substrate that poses grave danger to your beardie. Is it perfect? Of course not.

Regards,
Frank

personally after using sand and thinking it looked good....then using something that doesnt give off constant dust in the room and on the dragons like shelf liner...i use the soft thick shelf liner made by DUCK, from walmart. the white, or white with some design looks great in a cage, easy to clean with Navolson "spelling" cleaner, and cheap to replace when needed.

think what you may about sand...yes alot of people use it, thats fine their choice, im not going to argue with them on whos right whos wrong cause this debate has gone on for along time....but after losing an ADULT dragon to impaction due to sand, i choose not to use this. i dont wish that on anyone else, so this is why i dont recommend sand.

tile is also a good choice to use too. get something with a coating on it so its non-pourus...but something that has a rough texture to give the dragons traction. if your beardie room or whatever gets cold at night though, do not use this because the tile does get cold....but if it stays in the 70s your good to go. looks cool too, i have this in all my cages under the shelf liner for when i need to wash the liners.
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Beach Beardies

2.4. bearded dragons
1.0. Turquoise x Sunburst Veiled Chameleon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

Sorry you had a bad experience. How old was your dragon, and what type of sand did you use? Just trying to gain more insight into the subject.

I actually prefer not using sand from a convenience standpoint, but our beardie loves to scratch/dig (she's female, she starts this long before she's actually ready to lay eggs), and just wasn't too happy with just the duck liner.

BTW, we were never able to completely clean the duck liner (she also loves peas, kind of a messy affair after digestion). Will that Navolson cleaner remove stains, and where can you buy it?

Regards,
Frank

my dragon was an adult, about 2 years old. i used childrens playsand you can buy from any hardware store. i sifted and screened it completely, and even baked it to kill of bacteria.

i understand that dragons dig. they will dig if they are brought up in sand or other digable subsrate. mine dig too, even when not in sand, but they have stopped after awhile. they just have to get used to not having anything to dig into. females dig when getting ready to lay eggs. this could even be months before actually laying eggs too.

navolson or chlorexadine "spelling" an be bought from suppliers on kingsnake. just look in the classifieds under supplies. i cant remember where i got mine. navolson is the better stuff to use. doesnt get stains out, this is mainly used as a spot cleaning product to kill bacteria. make sure to get all the cleaner off.

yes i have the same prob of getting my duck liners totally clean. soaking them in hot water with 1 part bleach 10 parts water works well. make sure to clean off all water/bleach mixture too.
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Beach Beardies

2.4. bearded dragons
1.0. Turquoise x Sunburst Veiled Chameleon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

Sand is the worst substrate out there. It is for owners personal liking only and WILL KILL your bearded whether you like it or not. SLowly but surely your lizard will die. I can't even beleive people would put there little ones at risk. AMAZAING!!

Jeez, Lady give it a rest already. This forum is about everybodies opinons. Sorry if many differ from yours. But they are certainly not less valad. You are not the all knowing authority on Bearded Dragons.

No but any HUMAN knows that sand is horrible and shouldn't be used! It's also to help those who are doing wrong to their herps!

You provide no support for your arguement. Just you agressive opinion that everyone else is wrong and you are right. Another poster besides me listed many care sheets that list sand as a possible choice. But you just ignore it. There are many posters on this forum with extensive experience in the care and breeding of bearded dragons. Many have decades of experience. But to you, we are all just cruel idiots slowly killing our Dragons. I warn you and offer scientific data on the disadvantage of the use of spinach but you continue to advocate it because of one source. Decisions are made by considering many sources.

It scares me when you post. You came out of nowhere to this forum 4 days ago and have given nothing but agressive and often inaccure information. You should work on this.

At this point I'm sure you lost most of the respect of posters and readers alive on this forum. You just fail to accept others opinions and experience. Your posts have begun to sound like the rantings of an insane person or a child.

I'm not very active on this forum, but here's my opinion on sand:
Its the best substrate, Bearded dragons evolved on it! A bearded dragon could eat some, but that dosn't meen that he will, there are are some types of sand now that are made with calcium so that a bearded will be able to digest it if it eats a little. It looks great, it holds heat, beardeds like to dig in it, they lay their eggs in it, they live on it.
Bearded Dragons were made for sand!
(plus, its easy to clean up their messes, you can scoop it like kitty litter.)

that's my 2 cents.

ummm where do you get your info and where do you think beardies came from???? sure wasnt the beach....they come from austrailia mostly and actually spend most of their time on solid ground and in soil more than sand. they also spend alot of time in trees and bushes breeders do not put beardies in sand to lay their eggs, they use soil, peet moss, or a soil/little sand mixture. sand is the worst substrate, period. no offense, but you need to do some more research and read more caresheets dealing with dragons and other herps. alot of people argue sand is ok to use, thats fine with me if they want to use it. but i have had an experience with a dragon dying because of IMPACTION caused by SAND. my beardied ate it, and it actually got up inside his vent when he pooped and caused problems there too.

if what im saying wasnt true it would be written in care sheets by some of the top breeders in the world, vets, and herp specialists. just because a pet store uses sand doesnt mean its ok. in fact most pet stores dont give a crap about their animals.

i really wish no harm to others animals, but sometimes its like something bad has to happen to one's animal to make them realize whats right and whats not. i guess this is one of those cases.
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Beach Beardies

2.4. bearded dragons
1.0. Turquoise x Sunburst Veiled Chameleon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

I agree with BDlver. I prefer a sandy soil that they can dig nice and deep in. Solid substates are all about the keeper. They are completely unusable for the dragon. If you own an immune defiecient animal then I suggest tile or something. If you have had impaction problems then you are admiting you have a under metabolized/dehydrated animal. Why do you think newbies are the ones who have problems? If dust is a problem then look into preparing sand. I get a 5 gallon bucket, fill it half way with sand, tilt it, then run water in letting it pour out over the side until it becomes clean, clear water. If the animal wants to dig then provide something for him to dig in. If he wants to hide then provide him with hide spots. If he wants to climb then let him climb. They tell you what they want you just have to learn to listen. If you have a problem with sand then its YOUR doing. Find out the real culprit and stop blaming sand. Its not the sands fault its YOUR fault.

HAHAHAHA @ virus.....so you are going to say years of research about impaction with sand is wrong????? impaction has nothing to do with dehydration or MBD or anything else. dragons eat sand, they cant break it down, it causes intestinal impaction.

go do some research before you start posting information on here that basically says years and years of research is wrong.

you can sift, bake, wash, and clean your sand all you want but it will never stop the dust from forming. this is just what sand brings, period.
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Beach Beardies

2.4. bearded dragons
1.0. Turquoise x Sunburst Veiled Chameleon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

Only silica sand has dust. Don't know about calci-sand, maybe it has dust too. When I dump 50 pounds in a tank I see no dust at all. Nor do I ever see dust when they move around. You just used the wrong sand. Silica sand also has sharp edges because it is man made. This can cause impaction.

well when i did use sand...i used what everyone said was ok....basic childrens playsand bought from the hardware store

sharp edge dont cause impaction...build up of a substance they cannot digest is what causes impaction. whether it be sand or anything else they cannot digest properly.

i dont understand how people can argue that sand is the best...when the facts are out there about it saying that it can cause harm. while alot of people have no problem with it, others like me have had problems. and it isnt because we chose the wrong sand, or as virus said "newbies", its the fact that sand period, is a risk. 19 out of 20 caresheet i read do not recommend sand at all, so thats saying something. i guess you will learn when you lose a dragon from impaction, or the bacteria build up in the sand.

but whatever, im done with this subject and you hard headed stubborn people. the facts are there, you have read them, and you dont listen. whats next, you gonna argue the fact that lightning bugs are good to feed your dragon?
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Beach Beardies

2.4. bearded dragons
1.0. Turquoise x Sunburst Veiled Chameleon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

I challenge you to find any 19. Because way more recommend sand than don't. And yes lightning bugs kill dragons. I'm done with this too.

A profeesor at the University of Pennsylvania once told me "Intelligent people equally informed rarely disagree" Therefore, since I am not accusing anyone of not being intelligent, there has to be some other reason that we have had vastly different experiences. The only thing I can come up with is that the sand that each of us is using must be different. I have been told that my dragons are covered in layers of dust. I'm sorry but this is just not the case. If mine were, believe me I would immediately change substates. I am sorry that for the years I have been using sand it has been a positive experience. But either way this has been my experience.

i am using the correct sand also. and in my experince had bad problems with it. oh well.

i just dont need to be told by someone on here that im a "newbie" because i had a dragon die from impaction. i have been dealing with reptiles longer than some people on here have been born. dont judge someone till you know them. i dare someone to tell the Daichu family they are newbies. or kevin from dragons den, matt at mystical dragons, and so on. hell even the daichu's recommend sand and maybe in their experiences its been fine, but in mine, and alot of others.

its simple, as question was asked, advice was given. people differ, easy as that
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Beach Beardies

2.4. bearded dragons
1.0. Turquoise x Sunburst Veiled Chameleon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

Theres two possible reasons why your argueing about sand so much. 1- Your still new and making new mistakes or 2- you have experience but haven't learned from it. If you can't use sand because of impaction then you have husbandry issues. Thats fine. I've made tons of mistakes through out the years and I've learned from them. In the beginning I made some real stupid ones. Now I would have to go out my way to make a healthy beardie impacted. I feel newbies shouldn't use sand. They don't understand how to measure temps properly or how to keep a dragon hydrated. Tile is safe. When you feel you truly are starting to understand husbandry then switch to a usable substrate, but don't rush it. Heres a link to something on impaction/dehydration. Its about monitors but pertains to beardies. http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=427157,427208&key=2004

LOL yet again, ive been dealing with dragons and other reptiles for years and years, im no newbie, i dont have issues with my care of my dragons. impaction is caused by a blockage in the intestines. nothing to do with hydration. go talk to vets before stating something like that. my temps are all correct, the sand i used before was correct. yes i made my share of mistakes when i first got into reptiles, everyone does. but ive learned from it, and one thing i learned is that SAND is terrible. end of story

other than that, im over this subject. i have my opinions based on facts, and you think you know all, and if someone has a difference in opinion from you then they are "Newbies"
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Beach Beardies

2.4. bearded dragons
1.0. Turquoise x Sunburst Veiled Chameleon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

Hi
you have sand lovers and haters
tis wil always be a debate .
its the type sand you use ,not every sand is the same.
i uusing a type ow sand i alsreayd use for 7 years i never have problems.
i even put my babies direct on that type of sand.
calsium sand is bad and other sharf sand to you have silica in sand you have dust in sand.
the typ i use use pignon owners its 35- degree heated dust free and coccodiose free.
i never have problems .
this wil always be a debate i saw this debate over and over again
in the 7 years i visit kingsnake i saw this debated atleast 10 times
byeeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

Hi
not every sand is the same
i am using sand for over 7 years and never have problems.
i even put my just hatch beardies direct on the sand.
its sand pigeon owners use its dust free 350-400 degree celsius heated and coccodiose free.
i have 14 adult dragons and have eevry year round the 100-200 beardies i never got one impaction.
its the type sand you use .
this wil always be a debate on this forum
you have sand lovers and sandhaters .
am a sand lover,i think they could be digg in the sand .
its also very nice to siver poops out of sand and wasted greens.
so sand can cause impaction only the wrong type of sands,like calsium sand r sand that to sharf ,my sand is round shaped and if they eat it they wil poop it out.
my dokter found sand when he put two glas plates on top of eachother for a fecal exame ,but e told me that the proof sand wil pas trough the system .
bad sand wil stick to each other in beardies tummy and then it wil cause impaction like calsium sand does and other sands .
byeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

hey, I thought the crushed nut stuff that my herps
live on was the worst substrate.

lol, I dunno if you meant it, but thanks for bringing a little levity to the discussion.

>>hey, I thought the crushed nut stuff that my herps
>>live on was the worst substrate.
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0.2 cats (Pandora & Journey)
0.1 bearded dragon (Kleio)
0.0.1 green tree frog (Squishy)
0.0.1 goldfish (Namoli)