Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have gotten into a discussion about green burms and the death gene.Also about BD. I am looking for proof either way to disprove or prove what I have been told . Personally I thinks it's just a buch of BS. from people that are against owning and breeding burms.. Thanks.
Grunt.

Hard to take a post seriously from someone named "Grunt"; providing real names will get serious responses. Hard to disprove or prove your point when you never stated what the argument was about. As far as "just a bunch of BS from people that are against owning and breeding burms" you are talking to the wrong person. Aside from a VERY FEW people, I feel that most folks are not equipped to take care of burms....based on the 100's of burms that my facility has taken in over the past 5-6 years, the stats indicate the people are not fully aware of the immense responsibility of keeping these giant constrictor. I am only against the keeping of burms because most people can't provide the proper home. But, I do feel that people should legally be able to keep them AS LONG AS they provide the responsible care needed (which most people don't).

>>I have gotten into a discussion about green burms and the death gene.Also about BD. I am looking for proof either way to disprove or prove what I have been told . Personally I thinks it's just a buch of BS. from people that are against owning and breeding burms.. Thanks.
>> Grunt.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob I figured if I put help mr carmichael you would see it and respond quicker but its all good. The problem is I am sick of having people tell me that the green gene is a death gene, and that this so called BD or burm disease is killing a lot of burms. I personally think these 2 things are just something people use to cover up bad husbandry skills. I am looking for the opinions of intelligent people that hopefully have some answers and proof to wether or not these are real diseases. and the name Grunt is in memmory of my best friend , my departed black lab.who meant more to me than the life of most humans

what Rob was getting at, is dont' hide behind a screen name. It's Okay in my opinion to have a screenname as long as when you address someone for assistance or ask questions that you provide your real name along with it. As far as your question is concerned, I personally have never heard of the Green Burmese trait being referred to as the "Death Gene". I also don't think that it is being passed around by individuals who don't believe in keeping Burms as pets. I have seen quite a few Green Burmese that have grown up quite nicely and there is no doubt in my mind that they will get to a ripe old age. As you stated, husbandry is going to be the most important factor here.

Take care,

Chris
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My Website
www.herpfanatic.com

Well said, can't really add anything to the discussion.

>>what Rob was getting at, is dont' hide behind a screen name. It's Okay in my opinion to have a screenname as long as when you address someone for assistance or ask questions that you provide your real name along with it. As far as your question is concerned, I personally have never heard of the Green Burmese trait being referred to as the "Death Gene". I also don't think that it is being passed around by individuals who don't believe in keeping Burms as pets. I have seen quite a few Green Burmese that have grown up quite nicely and there is no doubt in my mind that they will get to a ripe old age. As you stated, husbandry is going to be the most important factor here.
>>
>>Take care,
>>
>>Chris
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>>My Website
>>www.herpfanatic.com
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Grunt has been my screen name for 2 yrs or more. My name is Shawn and I just dont have my signature put on my post's ,and if you look back through the archived posts you will see that I have been in may discussions on this forum. most people dont even call me by my name so I dont bother using it. . This green gene or death gene rumor I also think is crap,as I believe I stated ,I think it is just an excuse for bad husbantry skills. but thank you for your imput..

Grunt. to those who need it

Shawn .

Hi Shawn,

I'll try to add to this discussion what I can based on a good number of years of working with large numbers of burmese pythons as well as numerous other species of pythons.

First of all I would like to point out that even in nature not all baby burmese are "intended" to grow to mature, aged adults that reproduce. Even within individual clutches there are many baby burmese that have slightly different "genetic make-ups" that make some of the siblings more susceptible to different adversarial obstacles that life would ordinarily throw their way. No different than say, a human family with 4 children from the same parents and one has asthma and the rest do not. Some are simply more genetically predisposed to be more susceptible than others.

Add to this the apparent fact that burmese are more susceptible to chills and lower temps and lower humidity levels than other tropical species. Many species of pythons would never be affected by brief temperatures in the low 70's, but burmese may very well develop respitory infections from it. Though not all. Just those with a higher susceptibility to lower temps.

I also feel that due to 3 decades of captive breeding that burmese with weaker genes that would never have lived to maturity to breed in the wild were able to breed and pass on weaker genes to future generations. Why? Because in captivity we outsmart the odds that nature would have stacked against the weaker specimens. We keep them warm and safe and protected against the elements as we don't want to see any of them die. But in nature it is these very elements that weed out the weak so as to only leave the very strongest to survive to pass on their stronger genes.

Now add to this the inbreeding that is often blatantly performed to achieve each new color or pattern morph that surfaces. I feel that inbreeding further weakens already weak genes. I strongly believe that if stringent outbreeding is focused upon that future genes will be much stronger and the high percentages of fatality that cause these debates/issues will be avoided.

I hope this helps.
Our Website!

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

np
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.1 wife
3.5 kids
.1 retic 15'
1. retic 2'
1. burm 11'
.1 burm 5' albino
.1 burm 9'
.1 burm 10'
.1 peruvian 9'
1.1 pervian 1'
1. pastel 5'
1. pk stripline 3'
.1 boa 8'
.1 boa 5'
.1 boa 6'
6 baby boas

I have bred all of the true "Giants" for most of my life.I have imported many new morphs including the 1.1 Lueys. In my opinion and this is what it is my opinion.

I do not believe in a "DEATH GENE", AS far as snakes being born with weak DNA I DON'T BELIEVE THAT EITHER. The snakes that would have a Death gene or bad DNA are dead well before they hatch in the wild or in captivity. You most remember that nature always cleans up it weaker animals. But it is true that that luecistics and Albinos have a weaker gene but nothing that can be called a death gene, only the strong survive.

Now on to why these animals are so Rare in the wild. These snakes grow to be "GIANTS" 20' PlUS LONG BUT THEY ARE HATCH VERY SMALL,12" TO 20" and that makes them a nice meal for alot of other animals. The one thing that helps them grow to maturity and become a apex preditor in the ability to hide and to do this they use the one thing they were born with thier nateral colors and pattern. With oh lets say a Albino, Luey, Calico and any of the Rae morphd including greens the lose the ability to hide from preditors and there for become food themselves, Again natures way of weeding out the odd balls.

I believe Dave Beauchemin is correct. This is the entire basis behind the evolutionary process and the force of natural selection that drives it; the ability of an organism to survive due to the genotype passed to it by previous generations, and then transmit this genotype to its own offspring. There are individuals in most clutches or litters of reptiles that have “bad DNA” as you said, or more correctly, have a lower genetic fitness than their other siblings. But it is this ability to develop and transmit mutations of a detrimental nature to future offspring that also allows mutations to be passed on that can conversely enable that organism to adapt to a changing environment and continue to survive. Less fit genotypes are not always “weeded out”. There are a few that do survive. Additionally, there are many genetic mutations that are detrimental to an organism’s survival that don’t always prove fatal before birth. In fact, some don’t become fatal until after the organism has reproduced, and that is why they continue to show up in future generations.

Another good point David made was the loss of genetic fitness in captive snakes due to inbreeding. From forums and talking with different people, there seems to be many more cases of various types of disease in captive boids at this time than there was in the late 70’s and early 80’s. I definitely didn’t see the cases of RI in captive boids back then that I do today. I can remember dropping temps during breeding trials into the upper 60’s and low 70’s at night on boa constrictors and burmese, and never having the number of RI issues that I see keepers talking about today. This was before inbreeding had really been practiced much. Just my observations on it. Great topic, and I would be interested to hear some others thoughts on these issues.

Kelly

Kelly, you have made several great points. I really never touched on the whole inbreeding thing but you said it as well as it could be said. Inbreeding in snakes as it is in anything will create weak and bad genes. I have seen clutches from some breeders that have been hatched with no mouth, eyes or even vents. These defect are cause mainly by constant inbreeding generation after generation. Line breeding is ok, to a point.

But to touch a little on the R.I. when T. Crutchfield imported the 1st Albino Burm it had a very bad R.I. I have import a truckload of snakes over the last 20 years that landed in the states with R.I. but it is true thaat captive snakes get R.I. 1000 times more often then they used to.

In my last post I should have made it clear. Certain snake morphs have thier own troubles but nothing I would call a "Death Gene". I have never in all my years seen a certain morph that had a acute problems like lets say bad heart, lungs, blindness ect..... I have never had anymore trouble with any morphs then a normal burm, retic or rock. This is only my expierence, I guess my point is that I have the same common problems with my L.T.C. morphs as I do with freashly Imported snakes.

You made a good point about the RI problem with imports, but that would have nothing to do with genetics, and everything to do with poor holding conditions. Imports are held for weeks or months in unsanitary and very sub-optimal temperature conditions that seriously stress even the fittest of specimens. It’s no wonder that many of these specimens arrive with RI’s and other stress related issues. It is unfortunate, and I understand the issues and the economics behind it, but it is a shame that most exporters don’t care less about the condition of these animals as long as they make it to the importer alive. Even worse, many of these imported reptiles that make it here alive, and in fair condition, end up not being able to acclimate to a captive environment. Therefore, for numerous reasons, I would always advise a person to go with captive born whenever possible.

Kelly

I would like to thank all of you for your replies. Your answers have helped in answering my question. Its great to have so many different views on this subject. Thanks again Shawn

In recent studies the food allergies among humans for example has greatly increased. Why? Hygiene. we are so focused on keeping things clean and germ free that people are no longer exposed to germs like they were before and no longer build the immunity they used to. I believe that this is true in our captive animals. I have kept and bread burms. I love them and will continue to breed them. And i am not saying dont clean your cages. Just bringing up other things to look at.