Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

Looking at Cyrus I am sure he has neck edema. We KNOW it can't be from Vit A b/c he only gets it via his feeder insects. I stopped all vitamin (not calcium) dusting of his food, even though it was usually all off by the time he's get around to eating anything anyway.

We have all but given up on the eye thing. I believe it is just severe dry eye. The steroid drops made no difference so I am just giving him the artificial tears. Neither my vet nor I are keen on putting him under in order to "look around" since there are still no other symptoms.

As for the edema I have included some pics. What else could be the cause? Most of you know that due to dry winter here I go to a lot of trouble to keep him hydrated. Like Luna he will sit under humidifier & dripper and also will take a shower a few times a week. Is it possible to be getting too much water, thus resulting in fluid build-up? It doesn't make sense to me b/c I figure his body uses the moisture it needs and he'll excrete the rest. His urates look OK. his appetite waxes and wanes, but b/t time of year, temps and that he is adult it is to be expected. He eats crix, supers, silkies and sometimes a roach.

pics:

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I think I remember someone (feenie?) saying that gutloading feeders with cabbage seemed to help?
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

sorry Lele, I haven't heard of that before..... How is he doing??
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TFFF
(Tootie Freakin' Fruity Feenie)

hmmm... maybe it was Stitch's mom

he's not doing great. He seems to be keeping it closed longer and has not eaten for 3 days, thus no poop. I did get some repta-aid into him yesterday. Not much, just to make sure he's getting nutrition. He is getting a bit listless.

After all the vet checks, eye drops, etc. We finally chalked it up to serious dry eye, but in the last couple days I am changing my mind. I think I will have blood work done, just to check. I can't believe I am going thru all of this after what I went thru with Luna. Very frustrating. He's quite the sweetie
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

just jumped in for a sec to say I have been following your posts and am so sorry your beautiful baby blue boy has not been feeling well

Sure hoping things will change and he gets well soon. Such a cutie, hang in there.
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

thanks, Eve. Although there are no other outward symptoms I wonder what may be going on internally. There is a vet in another part of the state that knows chameleons, so I am going to try and do a phone consult with this week. He'd been fine until this eye thing in Ocotber.

thanks for chekcing in
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

No need for thanks kid, lol, I totally am with ya on the sick critters getting ya all upset thing, LOL .

I am getting quite nervous about my Coconut since she mated.... getting things ready, but watching her and (SEEING) all kinds of invisiable things, hahahhahahaaaa, meaning every weird way she even looks at me ... I'm asking her anything wrong baby girl.....

They drive ya nuts, but in a ( I luv ya kind of way)

I wish we knew what his problem was lele, and could fix him in an instant. As far as the edema , I know collareds get this and seems to be associated with too much vitimin suppliment, when you decrease, it seems to go down/ or goes away.

Of course I do not know if it works the same way in a chameleon, but I would have to think so. Just hope he will be okay REAL soon.
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

What gutloads are you using? The gutload would be my first guess if you have not been supplementing for at least a month.
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CANADIAN SILKWORMS

Hi Will,

B/t the conversations here, other forum, my vet and email with Gary Ferguson, the beta carotene seems to be useless on the insectivore/carnivore chams and that they need preformed which they would get from the feeder insects. So in a nutshell, that is why I gave up on the herptivite (for him) altogether. Also, that Vit A toxicity cannot happen with beta carotene only with the preformed. I just put this out there as a brief history of those lengthy conversations for anyone who doesn't know this. You may recall this began with his right eye thing, I gave him the doses finally agreed upon b/t Ferguson, my vet and me (8000 1x for two weeks = 2 doses) which did nothing for his eye. I gave him no more. OK, got that out of they way...

fresh carrots, apples, oranges, kale, collards, chicory/endive, dandeleions, squash occasional asparagus are the ones I most commonly feed. In the summer they get fresh picked pink clover and other nutritious greens from the garden/yard. I also give them fresh cooked egg yolk once or twice a week since I do not include it in my dry gutload. As for dry, I make my own and it's not really "dry" due to nature of ingredients and it is always refrigerated. I basically follow adcham gutload and adjust when needed, but most all those ingredients are in there. I use nuts, seeds and beans (raw peanuts, sunflower & flax seed, chickpeas, kidney and other freshly grown beans) for the protein source as well as alfalfa. no monkey chow

Anytime I have ordered it it came from cricketfood.com or Reptayls. So unless I missed something in the past 4 years of conversations and my cham "education" I am baffled. Any suggestions gladly accepted!!

thanks,
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi Lele,
What's worked for me dealing with edema is putting them
on a "cleanse" diet...basically not feeding anything for a week,
and giving them lots and lots of water and sun. Then try offering a couple feeder insects with no supplements at all, and use bland gutload like apples and melon. Go another week with no food...daily showers... keep repeating until the edema clears (usually about a month.) What caused it with my animals was feeding foods that were TOO nutritious (fully gutloaded, vitamin dusted, and feeding too often.)
Some of the commercially available gutloads have alot of calories in them...all that good stuff can be very taxing on the liver and kidneys
That's funny you mention over watering, the logical conclusion
is to reduce the fluid intake, but what could be happening is salt retention. Humans that retain water are advised to cut their sodium intake, and drink tons of water!
garrett

Hi garret,

thanks for your ideas. Unfortunately it is 26 degrees outside so the sun is not much of an option
Then try offering a couple feeder insects with no supplements at all

As I said in the beginning I have not been using supplements (except calcium) for a while and that is why I am baffled. I looked over the Vit A content of the foods I use and none of them are excessive and I vary it all the time so they rarely get a lot of one thing.

Some of the commercially available gutloads have a lot of calories in them...all that good stuff can be very taxing on the liver and kidneys

I make my own gutload and the only one I buy, as of late, is from Reptayls and feel confident in their ingredients. I never buy "over the counter" stuff from chain petstores

As for withholding all food for an entire week, well he's got crickets living in the cage with him (he will not cup feed) so he eats only what he wants. He definitely does not over eat. When he is full, he doesn't eat anymore - even his favorite, silkies!

Salt retention. hmmm...it's a thought. Would like other's input. My animals get bottled water (except in the shower of course) b/c we have extremely hard water (we have a dug well) and concerns about certain metals in the water have arisen in parts of the state lately. But even with all the water he never excretes excess salt from his nostrils which I would think to be an early sign of excessive salts.

thanks,
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

My oldest Cham also seems to be suffering swelling around the neck. My vet suggested my gut load may be "too good" (I dont use a vitamin supplment very often, and the one I do use doesnt have preformed A). Her other suggestion was that he is simply old, and like old people things begin to break down, organs become less efficient, etc.
I've increased water intake, to see if that helps.

You might find this site interesting: http://www.veiled-chameleon.com/weblog/archives/000229.html

I'm very interested in any other opinions out there....
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SandraChameleon@gmail.com
BC Canada

Hi Sandra,

Cyrus just turned a year in December, so in his case I don't think it is age

I looked at the link you provided and the pic of his poor cham! My, my she certainly had a serious case and I am glad he was able to resolve it. My female veiled Luna used to get it (not that bad) usually related to her clutch development.

Cyrus' puffiness seems much looser than Luna's ever did or the one in Jeff's pic. As for too nutritious gutload...I think if it is balanced and not always carrots, or always apple it should be OK (have you seen the gutload recipe on adcham?). But it would be interesting to hear what others think of that since you are the 2nd to mention it. But I will add that my other herps get the same feeders with no apparent problem. It's always slow here on the weekend, maybe we'll see more opinions come Monday.

How old is your oldest??

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet