Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't mean to sound so dumb... but I am. Terry... what does fossorial mean? I also need to ask what will happen if the temperature goes over 80 cuz it sure gets hot here in the summer. And lastly... how does one know if a snake they get is w/c or c/b? I was told that the guy who sold the snakes to the feedstore got them from Florida... but I have no idea if they were c/b or not. The snake looked really healthy, but I'm new at this. What do I look for?

Thanks for any and all help... and I loved the pix.

MissHisssss

P.S. I'm new at doing this forum stuff too... so if I'm doing it wrong... let me know.

I don't think anyone here thinks anyone else is dumb. We just forget sometimes that when someone is new to the hobby you need to tone it down more. You just need some help getting started. Don't be afraid to say that you are just starting out.

As soon as I wrote 'fossorial', I thought I shouldn't have used that word, but alas, once it's in print, you can't change it. One of the hard parts of forum writing.

Fossorial normally means secretive and living mostly underground as we use it here. Of course, all snakes are that way somewhat, but some are more so.

Bimaculata is a true Eurasian ratsnake, but less surface active than most of the others. Also, it is not as diurnal as schrencki and dione. They tend to hide more. I don't believe much has been written on the ecology of this snake. They might do a little light climbing, but it's not necessary to set up an arboreal environment.

As far as the pet shop experience goes, I don't care for pet shops much, like many others on these forums. You can't always tell if an animal is a carrier of any parasites or diseases, you just have to assume so to protect your other reptiles. You can usually see mites, if they're hatched out and not eggs. Your first few stool samples will probably indicate if the snake has worms or other pathogens in the digestive tract. For other diseases, etc, just watching the snake for a few weeks, month, or two will let you know if it's normal or not. If you suspect it is not healthy, you can get someone to examine it for you.

I personally don't buy snakes from pet shops anymore. If I had no other reptiles maybe I would, but you take your chances. Many of the people on these forums are experienced keepers and sometimes breed animals you can buy CB. Twin-spots are not very expensive either. Good luck with them, if you get them.

Bimacs don't need high temps to digest. 70-80*F. works well for me. Temps. in the mid-80's, or above, will start to stress your snake, imo. If you keep your snake indoors, it shouldn't get too high. If the store owner is telling the truth about the source of the animal, you shouldn't have problems. You could try to correspond with the source person for more info. Luck. TC.

Actually, it's good that you used the word fossorial, for now I know what it means. I just didn't want to be a bother by asking.

I went ahead and got the largest, most calm, and handsome Twin-spot of the three. I don't like pet shops either... except the one I sell a few pinks too. They are mainly reptiles. No birds, kittens and puppies. The feedstore I got the Twin from is actually worse than the pet shops around here in that they know even less about what they are selling. But I just had to have one of these beauties and wanted to give it a better home than what it was living in. Can they be housed together safely once they are older? If so, I might go and get the little one. The medium sized one is far too aggressive for my taste.

Thanks again for all the advice, and I hope to learn more in the future.
MissHisssss

Actually, this snake looks like a Central Chinese Dione's Ratsnake, Elaphe dione (Steppes Rat).

MissHisssss sent me a photo via email and although they're a little difficult to i.d. this way, it does look like a dione. The twin-spots (E. bimaculata) superficially look a lot like them, but are somewhat different ecologically. I'll try to put a link to my pics of dione in my collection.

As to the question of putting them together, yes and no. I wouldn't put males and females together unless they were very young or you were planning on breeding them. But I keep several females together and sometimes males (these might fight during breeding season).

other dione

Terry, I concur. It definitely looks like a Chinese Dione's Ratsnake.
Ophidiophile Farms

Ok... so now I'm confused. As I stated to Terry, that photo came from a Reptile magazine that labled it a Chinese Twin-spot but I know from personal experience that lables aren't always correct on photo's in magazine, and even in some books. So if that's really a Dion's instead of a twin spot, can you please give me more info on them and their care, adult size, temperment, etc? Actually, now that I've studied mine more closely it seems as though the top stripe is like a floresent gold like the one in the photo... then black as in the photo... but the next stripe is more browish rather than the gold that is shown in the photo. So I'm not sure what he is now. I guess the best thing to do is to take a picture of it... IF I can get my old 35mm to focus in close enough to take a decent photo, that is.

Oh yeah, I got a REALLY STRONG magnifying glass and checked for bugs and didn't see any. Could I see mites like this? And... can a snake catch a rash from a human being? (I'll bet nobody's ever asked that question before).

Thanks for your very informative answers
MissHisssss

I checked out the photo of the Dion's adult female in Ophidisphile Farms link and mine doesn't look like that one at all. I also noticed that in the photo that I sent Terry and he posted it for me (thanks) that there are faint darker black spots on the dark stripe. I noticed some of these on one of the snakes that was with mine in the feedstore. So I guess they can vary somewhat. I guess tomorrow will be photo taking day for sure.

MissHisssss

Dione's are highly variable (even ones from the same region). Many Chinese Dione's have dark stripes obscuring the spots but not all do. I am partial to light colored Chinese Dione's with faint to no stripes so my collection consists mostly (but not entirely) of those and the photos on my web site represent those too.
By the way, TFH publications regularly represent diones as bimaculatas. The yellow TFH book on Ratsnakes by Stazsko & Walls does this and I'm not surprised that Reptile Hobbyist did as well.
Bottom line - let's see a picture of your snake!

Well, I took some pictures but they turned out really bad. I'll have to find my telephoto lens and take some more cuz this lens just isn't hackin it. I sent Terry a few to check out but really don't think they are worth posting. The color is also really bad too since I had to take them outside in the bright sun. I'm trying.

So, what does the striped version of the Twin Spot look like? Anyone have a photo?

MissHisssss.

Hey, I know it can be a little frustrating, but we've been there before. You should do a search on this forum for old posts on dione and bimaculata.

I guess I missed the part that you took the pic from the magazine. I probably shouldn't post this early before going to work. I never got Reptile Hobbyist, but my guess is they made a mistake on the i.d. of their snake. I'm 99% sure it's dione and if it wasn't, someone would let us know. If your snake looks like the pic, it's probably dione.

The magnifying glass would probably reveal the mites. If there's a bunch you could see them with the naked eye. Also, be aware that there could be internal parasites..not likely if c/b. And, no, snakes won't catch your rash, to my knowledge.

Chinese dione, like all dione (there's many regional variations), are easy to keep. They're strictly diurnal and don't climb much. I take mine out and put them in a gallon jar and throw some large pinks or fuz in with them at meal time. Shouldn't have any trouble feeding thawed.

Chinese dione seem to be a little faster than others, but they make good pets. I just prefer the South Korean form, so keep those. I think Ophidiophile has the Chinese, along with many others.

Can't wait to see your pic, haha. TC.

Thanks so much for the info Terry. I took some pic's today and will send them to you tonight to put on this thread, if it's ok with you. (I don't know how to get them one here). Anyway... I couldn't get as close as I wanted cuz my manual camera wouldn't focus on them, so I hope they come out good enough to see what species it is.

Who ever thought of doing this forum stuff.... thanks. It's been a great learning tool.
MissHisssss

I received these four pics from Miss Hisssss tonight. Not only does it not seem like bimaculata, but it doesn't look much like dione, either. I believe it is 'rufodorsata', previously in Elaphe. I don't remember its new genus off hand. I looked at the stripes, the head and eyes, and the ventral pattern. All seem to point to rufodorsata. Second and third opinions appreciated....




As a result, I would say that the snake is probably an imported w/c rufo, since this species has not been bred to my knowledge, in the U.S. I would definately quarantine and hope for the best. They usually have a heavy load of internal parasites. Also, rufos eat fish and frogs in the wild and may not take pinks right away. This could be a tough one to keep alive, especially for a beginner.

PS: It could be a sham that people are trying to pawn these snakes off as c/b and Chinese twin-spots. That would be a rip off of the unsuspecting.

TC

Thanks Terry... as stated, I'm sorry about the quality of these photo's. They do not show the markings or color very well at all, but it'll give you an idea of what it looks like. The middle sized snake at the store had a better head pattern than this guy, and black spots within the black stripes as is shown in the magazine picture first posted. If anyone can tell me about a reasonably priced digital camera I could buy to get better pix, I'd appreciate it.

I fed my mystery snake tonight and he gulped down a live pink the second he hit the feeding box. Once he finished he seemed a little puzzled about the 'deadness' of the second pink, but soon devoured that one as well. He didn't constrict them... just ate them, like my corns often do. I was told that the other two at the store were eating pinks as well. I have yet to see him in the water bowl. Does all this help with trying to ID this guy...if it's a guy, that is. I know... send better pix, right?

MissHisssss.

...enough to i.d. the snake.

Rufos will take mice in the wild when adults. I had one once that fed well on mice all summer then suddenly died. I still don't know what it was that caused its death.

These Chinese red-backs, "garter-like" snakes, don't have to go in the water to feed, and might not be seen entering the water much. You could try putting a couple minnows in the water to see if it goes after them, which dione and bimaculata normally would not do. BTW, rufos are live-bearers, like garters also, and have extrememly small young.

Good luck continuing to acclimate this guy and hopefully the person who sold them to the shop had them de-wormed for you. I would really like to know more about this species, as noone seems to keep them long enough to learn much.

PS: Florida is the state they are usually imported into and the importers sometimes "treat" the snakes with meds before offering them to the public. Maybe the original owner where you live kept them for awhile before selling them to the shop. They are very cheap imports ($10-15, I think). Offering them as "Chinese twin-spots" could have raised the price enough for someone to make a tidy profit. What'd you say you paid?

TC

I've been looking at a lot of pic's on the internet and I found one that looked like mine and it was eating a mouse. It was on one of the German(?) links, but the name fits in any language. I'll try to get the feedshop owner to give me the guys name that he got them from and I'll ask for more info.

I paid $25 for him... but I also got an alterna or Mexicana (minimal red) Grayband King for $10 cuz it wasn't eating. So I guess all evened itself out in the end. I wasn't sure I should get the King but couldn't get the critter off my mind. I'd heard that sometimes taking a reluctant eater for a car ride would intice it to eat so I put it in the feeding box with a live pink as soon as I got home. He refused, so I took him out and held him and tapped the pink on his nose. He seemed interested but didn't strike, so I killed and brained the pink and he struck at it instantly, missed it's mark, and got a mouth full of human instead. I think he was as surprised as I was. He hit his mark the next time though. Gulped it down as though he was starving. I was soooooooo relieved. Now I just wish he'd stop biting ME. That's gratitude for you.

I will try some minnows on my mystery snake, if I can find some. Will guppies do? I'm sorry you lost yours.... how did he act before he died?

MissHisssss

I believe what happened to mine is that it went off feed for quite awhile, like a month and a half, or more, then died in brumation. I'm not sure if it was too weak, or these just don't brumate well, or what. Maybe they don't do well on a strict diet of mice either. I just don't know about rufos.

They should take guppies, but they probably aren't big enough to be too filling.

Since I won't be breeding him... must I hibrinate him come winter time?

Another newbie question... I want to see if he'll eat fish, so do I put them in his water bowl... or just offer them to him? Will a small goldfish be better than a guppy if I can't find minnows?

You've been so kind with all this,
MissHisssss.

You could try a small goldfish, but I wouldn't make them a steady diet. I'd start by putting the fish in his water dish. If he doesn't seem interested, then I'd try putting him in a deli cup with the fish.

I know that rufos cover the whole range of bimaculata through dione's; from the Yangtze R. up into the Far East of Siberia. They have fairly long and cold winters. I expect they hibernate in the wild for at least four months. I don't think it was the cold that killed my snake.

Having said that, I've kept some of my bimaculata and dione going most of the winter. Babies I only cool for a few weeks at about 60*F. It depends on what conditioning they have. I'd try to keep it feeding for as long as it's willing, then cool it if it won't eat for a long time, like three or four weeks, or more. Sometimes you have to cool them if they go off feed.

Thanks so much. I'll try a fish after the mice he ate have settled. I don't think he'll fit very well in a deli cup. He's about two feet long. I checked out a photo of a lighter colored Rufo in the old form and besides it's being a lighter color it's tail seemed a lot longer than mine as well. Would love to see the pictures you posted in the archives... but without the little red X. This is all getting very interesting.

MissHisssss.

Did you check out the posts under "Chinese Corn Snakes"? Maybe I'll haul out my old computer tomorrow and see if I still have some of those old photos laying around. Til tomorrow then

TC

Yes, I've been checkin them out, just can't see the pix with the red X's. How does one retrieve those suckers? Oh, never mind. I don't understand computer lingo anyway.

Just sent you a message. You gave me the answer here. Thanks.

MissHisssss

Yup, it's a rufodorsata - as I expected initially. It is very common for these guys to be called "Chinese Corn Snakes". Shows the problem with using only common marketing names. At least it wasn't a Rhabdophis! These made the news about 20 years ago, when they were imported en masse and marketed as "Chinese Garter Snakes". Lots of kids bought them and of course it then came to light that they were venomous (rear fanged)!
O. rufodorsata are semi-aquatic but most adults will eat pinkies. If they are reluctant to take pinks, you can scent them with rosy reds and that often helps. Tough ones will only take fish and tadpoles. I'm pretty sure Neil Ford at U of Texas-Arlington has captive bred them.
-DT
Ophidiophile Farms

...and all the extra info. TC.

Thanks to you all for the help. So... it's a garter snake instead of a rat? He stays hidden all the time. I even had to take him out to get a drink of water... which he took. Otherwise he never moves... except when I take him out to eat. He devours pinks. I will try a fish to see what he does. So what is a Rosy red? Is this like a Rosy Barb? I guess he's doomed cuz of all the parasites, right? Sniff So how does one get rid of them? My poor little guy. I guess you can tell that I'm a bit nervous about all this now.

Thanks in advance
MissHisssss

So... it's a garter snake instead of a rat?

You're asking some questions that have been asked for years and have been addressed on this forum many times before. Until recently, rufodorsata was in the Elaphe (it was considered a type of ratsnake). With recent changes because of genetic mapping (whatever that is), this species was put in a separate genus. It's still connected with the Elaphe, in my opinion, and is not a garter (or any natricine).

He stays hidden all the time. I even had to take him out to get a drink of water... which he took. Otherwise he never moves... except when I take him out to eat. He devours pinks. I will try a fish to see what he does.

One of the reasons I've stuck with schrencki and dione for many years. They are diurnal and active in daytime, and you get to see them more. Your snake could be secretive because it's not diurnal in hot weather; it's stressed from its ordeals; or it is stressed from pathogens. It could be eating lots, but not fairing well, so be careful, and don't over-feed it.

So what is a Rosy red? Is this like a Rosy Barb?

A rosy red is just a common minnow. Try a bait shop to see if they sell minnows.

I guess he's doomed cuz of all the parasites, right? Sniff So how does one get rid of them? My poor little guy. I guess you can tell that I'm a bit nervous about all this now.

This is the main reason I don't recommend rufodorsatas as pets. I don't believe this species is established in the hobby, and thus it's near impossible to find a c/b one. If you try to treat internal parasites, you'll be trying what many experienced herpers have tried before and weren't very successful at. It's been done with many species, such as Elaphe moellendorffi, E. situla, and many others, but with much dedication and perseverance, and species that were profitable for acclimating.

PS: You're more likely to get an answer on this forum if you don't ask too many questions at one time, and if the situation is clear with as much info as possible. I still haven't set up my old computer, yet, so I'm not sure I'll be able to retrieve the old pics at this time. Later, TC.