Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I live on Maui. This weekend I read our local news
paper. In the letters/opinion section, someone
asked why in the last 2 weeks they saw 5 Jacksons
fall off trees and die. All of them were black. Any
hoo today I went to that part of the island to check
out the Jacks. We found 4 of them and they all had
the black skin and were weak. Some of them lived on
trees that were isolated, so I doubt they had contact
with other Jacks. I'm wonderin if what ever it is may
be air born or passed on by what ever food source they
have in commmon. I wonder if it's some sort of bio
control. I know they are trying get rid of the veileds
that were in the wild. Any guesses on what the cause
could be? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

thank you
Anthony

Anthony, what were the temperatures like when you were witnessing the black chameleons? Next outing, can you take some photos for us to see? and record some details like, time of day, temperature in the immediate areas, humidity, etc. This would be interesting info for us to compare with what is happening. Also, any online news articles on this would be neat to read.

The jacksonii have seemed to be perfect occupants for the islands and have probably evolved minutely in different directions to their homeland counterparts. It's possible that you are witnessing something more than just a disease or poisoning though.
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CANADIAN SILKWORMS

I'll try to make another trip this weekend. I'll
take a camera along and get some pics.

thanks

O.K I got some pics. I hope this works

Here's another

The temp in their habitat this time of year is low 80's
in the day down to high 50's at night. Humidity average
is around 20-30%. Very sunny and clear. Not no rain forest conditions up there, but their thriving. In 1hr we saw around 20. We couldn't get close to them all to see if they had the black patches. However the ones we could get close too all
had them.
Can jacks get skin cancer? The reason I ask is because I
noticed that the jacks we encountered with the patches
lived on smaller trees that didn't provide much shade.
There's more rain this time of year and those trees still
don't offer much protection(IMHO). During the summer
months it must have been even worse.
The island offers all different kinds of habitat. If I
have time I'll check on the populations from the others.

They are not only spraying with citric acid but also caustic lime...
http://www.coqui-hawaii-ecotourism.hawaiiancoqui.org/

Caustic lime...
http://www.answers.com/topic/calcium-hydroxide

Burns (human) from caustic lime...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8634123&dopt=Abstract

For more experienced responses, you could probably speak with Matt and Mary Lovein, who live in Holualoa on Hualalai Mountain. They are artists who are also chameleon enthusiasts.

Their art site is: www.lovein.com

This part of their site is devoted to the chameleons: Tiny Dinosaurs

They have written the following articles for the Chameleon online Ezine:

Living in their Habitat

The Story of a beloved Jackson’s Chameleon, Spunk Bob, wild in Hawaii

There is contact details on the site to call them via phone.
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CANADIAN SILKWORMS

I am FAR from an expert on chams in general and even less of an expert on Jacks having never kept one. But, the sentence that jumped out in your OP was that a bio-control is being used for veiled populations. Can you get information about what and where this is being used? Bio-control (bc) is ALWAYS a subject for controversy since it often impacts non-target species and realized too late. Sometimes a seemingly benign bc is being used to keep a certain insect population in check, but the whole food chain is forgotten (ever read Silent Spring?) and the next one up the food chain ingests and becomes ill or dies. I work with Lepidoptera (moths/butterflies) a lot and this question arises often. Therefore, I have an interest in bio-control in general and would be interested to know anything you may find out.

Again, not an expert, but could this be a fungal disorder? I'll leave the rest to the more experienced...

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Sorry Lele, I need to clarify what I said. What
I was trying to say is that I wonder IF IT
COULD be a form of bio control. I'm sorry if I
gave anyone the wrong idea. Bio control to me
is a very touchy subject. I really don't want to
start any rumor mills... my apologies.
The reason I came up with that is partly because
of the article in the newspaper and the fact
that there were so many chams with the black
patches. Jacks have been here for 20 yrs or more
and I haven't seen so many with the black patches.
I too have to leave this question to the experts.

hey spuds,
i am also not a expert at all on chameleons,i only have one and hes my one and only..but seeing those pics makes me kinda think about global warming maybe..cause it does kinda look like those are burns..thats just a idea though..could be anything really,but temps are rising and we'll start to possibly see alot of deaths caused by that..i read global warming will possibily start to kill off alot of chameleon species in madagascar once global warming starts to get even more serious then it is right now.. sad to think about..
jon

I'm no expert on this, but I would think that the chams have injested something toxic. It could be a type of pesticide that some insect ate and the chams then ate them. Only sure way to find out is to have them sent to be examined.

Hi guys,
Well, the black patches is certainly interesting. First off, can someone please post a PDF of the newspaper article, I would love it for my archives.

Okay, here is my wild guess. They are using a bio-control to kill the Coqui frogs on Maui. The product is Citric Acid. Maybe this is causing the skin lesions? I'm not sure what rate they use it at, and IF it can even hurt a vertebrate- but if these Jackos living near gulches with Coqui control...I'd think of that- as we know...Jackos absorb more water in their sking then some other chams that just bounce the water off. I would say that from my experience with pesticides (I work in that field), that this doesn't immmediately jump out at me (from ingestion). Nor would diet seem to be causing it (but I'm not an expert on that end). I wouldn't rule out UV burns however. It really looks like either a) a fungus b) a virus c) burns from either UV or chemicals.

I don't know personally of any bio-control used for Jacksons. And the Veileds also, are not sprayed in any way.

I talked to Mary, but I don't get to the forums much, but I'd love to keep updated. Anyone on Maui willing to give MISC a call and just ask if they have ideas? They may be straight forward. I'm sure the Bishop museum of the HDOA will be looking into it.

Maybe the high densities of chameleons and inbreeding is finally catching up with the species? Sometimes, normal thresholds are reached and crashes occur. This could be one of those times.

Best,
Kenny

Doesn't look like a burn to me (a couple of the pics show black patches low on the body, and burns usually occur along the back and the dorsal spines). I doubt citric acid would bother chams at the concentration needed to damage frogs. It would likely get washed off pretty quickly. Again, I'd expect it to show up along the back and head if it was sprayed from above. Most likely it is a skin disease or fungus that the relatively isolated gene pool of HA jax happens to be sensitive to. Also, chams show bruising from injuries (insect bites?) as black areas.

Here's a scan. It was posted in the
"letters to the editor" section.

The other thing to remember is that chams often show large dark patches when they are close to death...and this has nothing to do with the CAUSE of their sickness. As the cham gets weaker its basic systems shut down including control of body temperature and skin color. What they may be seeing is a sign of approaching death, not a disease in itself. By the time a cham is so weak that it falls out of a tree it may well be dying.

It was suggested to me that someone take one of the chameleons in for a diagnosis...and I think that would be a good idea.

Hey guys, I happened upon this thread cuz it was listed on the kingsnake.com main page. I saw the pictures, and aside from those black patches those are some healthy looking Jax. Not to repeat everything in the last post, but it's true: the Jackson's turning black is indeed a sign of a approaching death, but not necessarily a sign of any particular disease, as the Jackson's lose the ability to regulate their color when they near death. My little girl died from stress complications from stomatitis and as I was rushing her to the vet I remember watching her belly grow blacker and just knowing it was over.
What's strange to me, again, is that aside from the black patches, those Jacksons look like a picture of perfect health, right down to those amazing horns... so I agree, the best possible way to determine a cause is to have a necropsy on one of the recently deceased. Who knows, you may save a large sum of wild Jacksons with what you will learn from it.
Best of luck!
~Tiff
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"Were the diver to think upon the jaws of the shark, he would never lay hands on the precious pearl."

>>have in commmon. I wonder if it's some sort of bio
>>control. I know they are trying get rid of the veileds

The condition of the wild jax appears very similar to a condition observed in deremensis. This is significant because deremensis are a Trioceros species, like jax. The spread of the black color, the quick death, etc. are similar, if not indeed the same. Here are pix of deremensis with the condition:

http://www.wildeyereptiles.com/cpg132/displayimage.php?album=16&pos=14

http://www.wildeyereptiles.com/cpg132/displayimage.php?album=16&pos=15

http://www.wildeyereptiles.com/cpg132/displayimage.php?album=16&pos=16

http://www.wildeyereptiles.com/cpg132/displayimage.php?album=16&pos=17

These are not my animals, I just have permission to post their pix, and I was told that they did not get a conclusive diagnosis. The deremensis was/were well cared for captive(s), not from nor kept anywhere near HI. What is happening to the jax may be related to this condition in the deremensis, which would reduce a likelihood of it being a state-sponsored population bio control. It's probably naturally occurring.

A necropsy of a freshly dead jax, AND a biopsy of living affected tissue is necessary for a solid diagnosis. If cost prohibitive, call the local college and find out if their biology or herp dept would be interested in studying the affected animals. There are ways to reach professionals and help these animals without breaking the bank.

*Thank you WER, for your permission to share these pix.*
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Kristina Francis

www.melleridiscovery.com