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As promised to a few...

eyeswideopen Jan 28, 2007 09:29 PM

As I promised, I took weights of my little ones. As well since I am not at work, and have a few minutes, I shall post the complete history as promised. I am terribly sorry if I take up anyones time, nor do I wish to become a bother to anyone. So my apologies ahead of time.

I bought the two BP's in october,(kit) and November (flu) of 2005. Unfortuantly I was uneducated upon the place to buy them, o with regret I admit I purchased from a local Petco...Sad I know. Kit is a very good eater, pounding away everything put in front of him, Flu on the other hand is a differant story...He has a tendency to eat for a few weeks, then skip one or two weeks...Hence the smaller one. As I stated earlier, I finally had the chance to weight each of them this evening. Both are approximatly 20-24 inches in length. Now Kit pulled in at 254 grams, while Flu weighed a slightly lower weight of 175 grams. Neither looks under weight as far as looks go, but then again looks are always decieving. I am cursed with a big block of worry syndrome. I have taken quite good care of them, they are on a strct feeding schedual, a clean thirty gallon cage, (until they make a mess, always ater a good scrubbing...)plenty of hides and a water dish, yet I tend to continuesly worry about them. I just need a few words of wisdom. Am I in fact a poor keeper? Or do I worry to much? I wish I could post pictures for you, but I lack the means at this time.

Once again, I apologize now for any annoyance I have caused. I wish everyone the best of luck this season, may you have nothing but the best.

Replies (16)

joshhutto Jan 28, 2007 11:38 PM

with those weights I have 2 questions. You say they are on strict feeding schedules, what the heck is it? and 2 what are you feeding them? Our smallest 06 babies are over 250g and our smallest 05 animal is around 700g and that is a snake that hasn't ate since august (btw it has only lost about 50g in that time). Yes I know some snakes don't grow as fast as others but if you are even feeding one mouse a week which should be the minimal for a small bp they should be much larger than that. I mean heck we have 05's that are hovering around the 2000g mark.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

j3nnay Jan 29, 2007 12:26 AM

Seperate them into either 20L tanks or into equivalent sized tubs with UTH's for heat. Sounds like the one is probably not eating due to stress from being with the other snake. 90% of balls don't like to share their living quarters, and that last 10% is the balls that are breeding.

The previous advice you got still stands

~jenny
-----
1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
0.0.1 Mountain Horned Lizard
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 mice (Cute Girl Mousy)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
0.0.1 chupacabra (it ate our chickens)

jenny.thegreenes.org

eyeswideopen Jan 29, 2007 10:15 AM

To answer the two questions...They are eating one adult mouse every week. I have no idea why they seem small to me, unless I am just a bad keeper. There is the slight chance I weighed wrong, but I don't see that either. And to answer j3nny...I kept the other in the beginning in a single 20gallon...He wasn't eating then for a few weeks, yet once the side cracked, I put him in with the other, immediatly they began climbing around each other, and amazingly I feed him the next week, and he pounded away at the mouse. I believe him to be a picky eater. Other than that...I just don't understand...Perhaps as I said, I am just a bad keeper.

j3nnay Jan 29, 2007 10:26 AM

Try offering two mice a week. You probably wouldn't grow much either if you ate the same amount of food as you did when you were five

Other than that, maybe you just have small snakes. If they're healthy and not skinny looking, then I wouldn't worry. A bad keeper is one who wouldn't have even thought about whether or not he was feeding his animals enough.
-----
1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
0.0.1 Mountain Horned Lizard
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 mice (Cute Girl Mousy)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
0.0.1 chupacabra (it ate our chickens)

jenny.thegreenes.org

melindas Jan 29, 2007 11:40 AM

As stated by jenny I would offer a mouse every 5 days, babies digest alot fasterr than adults. I think your doing a great job.I housed two toghther for about a year untill my female was way bigger than my male and I had to seperate them. My male stopped eating for 3 weeks, I would also suggest feeding them seperatly do not do it together. I know alot will not agree but i think they can stay together for sometime. When they mature thou you will have to. You wil know when the time comes.. Increase the food amount and enjoy them..
-----
1.0 Het for pied
0.1 Het for Pied
1.5 normal balls
1.1 bearded dragons
0.1.0 Sulcata tort
1.3 kids
1.0 husband
To many little critters list

eyeswideopen Jan 29, 2007 11:59 AM

Thank you to everyone who has been kind enough for a few words of wisdom. I can't help but love these two...And to answer the question earlier, I do have seperate tubs I feed them in so they are not feeding in the same enclosure. I realize eventually they will possibly need to be seperated, but for now, they seem to enjoy each other's company...if that's possible...j3nny, and the rest of you, thank you...You have given me hope in this otherwise cruel world. Thank you

LeoLady420 Jan 29, 2007 12:27 PM

You may want to upgrade the tank size, instead of 30 gal for two you may want a 50 breeder or so, seems like not enough room to me to have two BP's in there. They seem very stressed as well, like said before you shouldn't house BP's together, unless tended to breed. Males develop faster then females as well and sometimes try to mate to early with the girls. What are the temps? Substrate? Humidity? It would help maybe to know some of that as well. would also try a small rat, they are higher in fat content then mice and will put weight on the snake verses feeding 2 mice. Sometimes they will only take one anyways, make it a good one. Good luck!

zefdin Jan 29, 2007 01:51 PM

Get a fecal test done at the vet. Its pretty cheap and you will know if they have parasites. They may not be gaining weight due to parasites, esp. if they are imports that were bought at Petco.

OR, and I know some people are gonna scream here (covering ears),...... if the skinny guy (Flu) doesnt start gaining weight and you dont have money for the vet, you could just go ahead and treat for parasites. You would prob. have to use 2 different medications to cover all types of the little buggers, but you could do that too.

Also, dont knock yourself, you wouldnt be here asking questions if you didnt care.

gant77 Jan 29, 2007 01:39 PM

I would introduce a weanling/crawler rat to get him used to the increased size of the prey and give him a couple at a time if he'll take them. Then move up to a small for a while, then move up as he grows, and he will grow quickly with more food. Generally a 05' should be on at least small rats but more preferably, medium sized rats. Good luck.
-----
In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

eyeswideopen Jan 29, 2007 02:51 PM

Alright it seems I have a few more questions that have arrisen, so I shall do my best to answer them.
The temps are kept at 85 on the hot side, and close to 75-80 on the cool. The humidity is always kept between 40-50 unless they are going into shed, then bumped up to 65-70. The substrate, currently using the Zoo Med cage carpet. I tried using everything from aspen to the dirt, yet I continued having a problem with mites. But once I switched to the carpet, the problem was soon resolved. I hope I am not forgetting anything. As for the cage size. They currently have plenty of room, I have carefully weighed my options and room. Once they begin to grow some more I am planning on switching to possibly a 50 gallon breeder, or a simple 75 gallon. The feedings are currently once a week, I have always been worried about over weight problems, as they are currently in a nice round shape, just small in length. I shall try feeding rat pups once I get my hands on them this weekend. I shall try the fecal exam as well, once I find the right place. I don't plan on breeding these two, yet I also don't wish to seem as though I am treating them badly. I have heard the arguments for both sides on keeping in seperate tanks...I don't mean to seem ungrateful, but they don't seem stressed to me. They always eat, except flu that is...he's always picky...But neither show signs of stress. I shall keep everything in mind though, thank you...everyone

I hope this doesn't come out wrong, nor do I wish to offend anyone. You have by far been more help than anyone I have found yet, including the so called specialists and the books lol

amarilrose Jan 29, 2007 03:39 PM

eyeswideopen,

As others have pointed out, the fact that you care enough to ask means that you are probably not an incompetent keeper. You don't have much experience, and you can't help that yet. No worries.

You said you use the "cage carpet" for substrate. I used it and loved it at first... and I had issues with it eventually. I suggest you NOT use it. For one thing, there is no reason that the carpet would resolve any issues with mites - they may just be hiding better, or whatever OTHER treatments you were using to control the mites finally worked. Always check your water dish for any signs of mites, and (as you probably already know) check your snakes. IF you do still have a problem with mites, that could also be a source of stress for your animals that could be responsible for a less-than-stellar feeding response.

The issue I had with the cage carpet was that its texture eventually tore up my snake's belly scales. It didn't look like much at first, but the fibers catch the edges of the scales and rough them up - actually shred them a little, once they've been on it for a while. My snake ended up having a skin infection that I had to treat with antibiotic ointment quite often. Before the infection began one other wierd thing that I saw on the carpet substrate was that because of her cut up belly scales, she shed funny - almost more like a lizard - with small patches, even individual scales being shed BEFORE she actually started trying to shed. I switched over to newspaper, and have had NO issues.

Luckily for me, I am a college student, and the campus paper is plentiful and free, so on Fridays, at the end of the day, I consider anything still sitting in a newsstand free bedding!

Even if you are not located near a college, and perhaps don't get a newspaper delivered to your home, there is probably some kind of a free paper available near you. I would think that if you talked to someone at a local recycle center, or printing facility, you would probably be able to get stacks of unwanted, clean papers for cheap or for free.

Now, about STRESS. You said "they don't seem stressed to me. They always eat, except flu that is...he's always picky...But neither show signs of stress." Picky eating can be a sign of stress. In fact, a lot of the things you've asked about in this and in other threads ARE indicators of stress, which is why everyone keeps talking about your snakes being stressed. One thing I have hit on before, and others have as well is that they are in the same cage. I myself grew up keeping several species of colubrids (rat snakes, king snakes, etc.), and we commonly kept up to four snakes in a cage without any feeding problems arising because we fed our animals in "feeding tubs" outside of their cages. We didn't do this with any king snakes or milk snakes, because those species are known to be cannibalistic. But keeping lots of rat snakes together was a common practice... 15 years ago. Since then, reptile keepers have learned a lot about what makes a more successful set up.

First in the argument to house them separately, is stress - and feeding response/habits. Not all snakes that live in a cage with another snake will be stressed by that, however where you have one snake that eats regularly, and one that is "picky" I would say that Kit isn't neccesarily stressed by Flu's presence, but Flu IS probably stressed by Kit's presence.

Second in the argument to house them seperately, is bugs. Whether we are talking about parasites, internal or external, or disease, the treatment and prevention of all is made far more simple and manageable when the snakes are ALL housed separately. The presence of any such 'bugs' will also create stress that will probably affect feeding response, though in an animal that is characteristically a good feeder, such as Kit, stress may not automatically put the animal off its feed, until the situation has become a much more serious problem.

Overall, you sound like you have a handle on the temps and humidity, so kudos to you for that. Listen carefully to the advice you are getting (and I know you are getting a little bit of everything under the sun). Your snakes still need a few changes to be made to be truly successful.

Good luck to you.
~Rebecca
-----
0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

eyeswideopen Jan 29, 2007 04:13 PM

I do see several of your points...Perhaps it is time for myself to stop being selfish and try new things. Once the oppertunity arrises, I shall make a change of cages for the two of them. They have lived this long together, perhaps they can make it a few more weeks till the cash is there. As well as their carpet. Your points on this subject have definantly created concern for me. I shall indeed use the newspaper we currently get. I doubt they will care how it looks. I assume a few layers is still fine with the under tank heater, and the overhead light, as well as continued spraying? Thank you kindly for your words. Here's hoping things change soon. Thank you.

amarilrose Jan 29, 2007 04:46 PM

You can in fact use several layers with an under tank heater, just experiment a little (measure the surface temp with different thicknesses of paper on top) to figure out what works.

As I said, I prefer newspaper, but you should know that it becomes harder to maintain humidity when you use it. Daily or twice daily misting may be neccessary. Again, experiment, measure, and figure out what works.

Bugeting is usually the chief reason people will house snakes together, so that is understandable. Just make sure you make separating them a priority - next payday.

~Rebecca
-----
0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

melindas Jan 29, 2007 06:02 PM

Check your local paper. I always see tanks very cheap here. Sometimes even free.
-----
1.0 Het for pied
0.1 Het for Pied
1.5 normal balls
1.1 bearded dragons
0.1.0 Sulcata tort
1.3 kids
1.0 husband
To many little critters list

DZBReptiles Jan 30, 2007 07:14 AM

Eyes, keep doing what your doing, they will be fine. Don't get caught up in weight versus length. If they look well rounded and not skinny then they are probably fine.
As for keeping two snakes together i don't think its as much of a problem as people think. I have been keeping snakes for thirty years and have done it many atime with no problems. Infact i currently have two Borneo Short-Tails together in a 32qt. tub.
They were originaly housed in 20gl long tank, but I was unable to maintain the humidity so I moved them to a rack in seperate tubs. The smaller of the 2, both females stopped eating. So after a shed and three weeks of not feeding I put them back together and she ate right away. Infact she ate three mice that week and caught up to her sister in meals. Here is another interesting one. I have a 05 het pied male that has been off food since the end of november. since i have had him he has never used a hide. I have a 06 het albino male that went off food the last week of december and he always uses a hide. I am getting to the point. i had arranged delivery of two snakes and was to get a new rack this weekend to house them. i was unable to get the rack so i decided to put these two males together. figured neither ones eating so nothing lost. The 06 male went straight in and into the hide. No surprise, but a couple hours later though when I checked on them the 05 male was also in the hide. Now if they do not like being around other animals why would an animal that has not used a hide in the 4-5 months ive had him suddenly go in and stay in. I have read a lot of post from people who are against keeping two animals together but consider beeing isolated in a tub for hours a day with no contact with anything except yor trusty water bowl and a fake hollow rock. But hey you should seperate them at the very first chance you get. you wouldn't want them to become attached.LOL

Jeff

eyeswideopen Jan 30, 2007 10:06 AM

Thank you DB for your opinions...I am surely taking everything into consideration. I have heard many arguments on each. As I said before, I tend to over worry...So I must thank everyone for their words of encouragement. Who knows, perhaps I shall find something else to worry about once the show is here this weekend lol. Perhaps I shall take them up there so people may see them as well. Thank you once again.

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