Reptile & Amphibian Forums

how many of you have ever purchased weird/crazy lookin import GRAVID females and actually got some genetic weird/crazy offspring from them? Id love to see some pics

This was produced from a WC gravid female.
Link

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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

n/p

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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

Now THAT'S pretty
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

Ok, well, maybe not. I have never purchased a gravid female before.

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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Jay, it looks like it's overheatin' Bud. Ya better get it outta the tannin' booth quick!
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

>
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

LOL, was referin' to the snake, I haven't got a good look at you lately.
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

I'm interested to know what happens to those adult weird/crazy lookin import GRAVID females after they dump their eggs?

I'd like to hear one, just one success story of acclimating an adult female to once again breed and lay eggs in captivity.

Those of you who purchase imported gravid adult females are only encouraging additional exports of such. Those frigin females should be left in Afrika to procreate in the future instead of dying in captivity!

How about buying a captive bred baby female, spend 3-4 years growing her and then breed her yourself, much more rewarding then cutting corners and buying import GRAVID females.

Disposable adult female ball pythons, humans make me sick

Brian A.

Not a success story though...

I purchased a snake as a het that later turned out to be a gravid imported female... (Got ripped off big time...)

She laid, and the eggs hatched. 2 of the babies were kind of tripy high yellows.

4 years have now passed and she has never returned to her pre-lay weight. She eats when she wants (6x a year... maybe) and I never expect her to be a breeder.

Justin

np.........
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Charles

Good for you.

Can you imagine what it looks like?

Some poor locals, with no money, is hired for bottom dollar or traded a pack of cigarettes to hunt around with a pick and shovel for these beautiful creatures during breeding season.

I can just picture the poor and pregnant female Regal Python, ripped from her hole where she thought she was safe, shoved into a wooden crate with prob. no water, and shipped off to the USA to benefit someone here.

This cant be good for the wild population or the people of Africa.

I am not saying I condone the import of mass amounts of anytype of wildlife but you are being very narrow minded. First off, the little bit of money that the locals do receive for catching the animals is a vast amount more then that individual would/could have earned doing another meager untrained skill in there home country. So by allowing a "controlled" amount of importation you are creating profitable jobs. Remember that just because $2,000 a year is crap to us it is a considerable wealt for others. Secondly, where do you think all these amazing morphs came from. THe first albino was not amazing hatched from captive bred parents. It was imported by Bob Clark. The same can be said for the original specimen for every morph that we all love so much. So yes I do agree that the importation of Balls is excessive but I do think that there is a need and a place for it, on both sides of the ocean. Todd

Am I to understand from your argument that you feel that the current imports are under some kind of control???

I see no such hope from where I stand, but perhaps someone who knows the dark side of this trade better than I can enlighten me.

I personally feel like we shouldn't be importing ANY more ball pythons, with the possible exception of the guys who want to spend some seriously big bucks for any wild caught oddball/morph INDIVIDUAL snakes. I don't think there is any kind of a case for an argument that the current captive population would be limited in its genetic diversity by cutting off WC imports.

I know that the reptile trade itself would not exist without first being established by WC imports (or for the corn snake enthusiasts, just backyard WC)... but there should be some kind of a logical cut off, ya know? We don't NEED to import more BPs; there are probably more captive BPs being produced annually at this point than there are WILD BPs left to hatch on their own!

This is a bit of a sore spot for me, so sorry I kinda flew off the handle folks. Long live the CB Ball Python trade!

~Rebecca
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0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

"there are probably more captive BPs being produced annually at this point than there are WILD BPs left to hatch on their own!"

This is a serious misrepresentation of fact.

Taken from Barker's book,

Which summerized states

If the population in Ghana farmland is slightly less than one ball python per acre (estimated, but on par with study results) that in GHANA alone the total population is roughly 18 million adults, if gravid females comprise 22 percent of the population as they did in his study and on average laid 8 eggs (average of 30 wild clutches in the study) than each year 32 million eggs are laid. Even allowing for overestimation by a factor of TEN they would be hard to classify as endangered (Gorzula 1998)

When we allow our personal feelings to interfere with the facts you can easily doom a species by "protecting" it. Believe me, if Ball pythons were not a source of income for the locals in the countries which allow thier export they would be killed and eaten or thier habitats would be modified to make room for something that does make money. As much as it pains people to admit it often commercialization of a species often ensures thier continued existance. When you allow the genie out of the bottle (allowing government to step in and ban importation) it's impossible to put it back....next thing you know those nice people from HSUS or USF&G who helped you with your crusade are starting thier own petitions and championing legistlation to ban you from keeping Ball pythons or any other animal regardless of thier origin...we must watch who we align ourselves with.

Where you say "if Ball pythons were not a source of income for the locals in the countries which allow thier export they would be killed and eaten or thier habitats would be modified to make room for something that does make money. As much as it pains people to admit it often commercialization of a species often ensures thier continued existance." I agree with you completely - but I don't have to like it. And absolutely, government control is an issue that, well, my favorite quote from my professor this year was: "the (any) government is the master of unintended consequences!" Believe me, I am not calling for drastic government measures. I would however like to see consumer choices make the changes I was talking about happen.

Ultimately, yes, I'm admitting it, I said something that I didn't really have anything to back it up with. Dumbass me. I got carried away. Sorry.

My real point (which may have been lost - hence my apology for getting carried away) is that WE should seek to change this by our own behavior. Legislation quickly spirals out of control (and WOULDN'T allow for the exceptions that I think ARE worthwhile) and it is not the response I am 'calling' for. Consumer demand is a LARGE driving factor behind the way markets pan out.

It would be nice to see people organize into a non-profit organization of Ball Python breeders, keepers, and hobbyists, which could spearhead our efforts to keep our hobby legal, and to perhaps look into the kind of stuff we're talking about here. Ya know, like horse or dog breed organizations do.

I hope I made more sense this time. Acceptable?

~Rebecca
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0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

Agreed, unfortunantly....time and time again motivated people have started groups such as the ones you refer to only to have them fizzle from lack of membership involvement or chronic infighting. It often makes me wonder if it's just bad luck, perception, or if there's a "link" between herp keepers and loner mentality. I include myself in this of course because I'm not out there beating down the doors of local lawmakers when my fellow enthusiests are being threatened in another state. It certainly makes us easy targets for those who would want to see then end of animal keeping as a whole...I don't understand how there always seems to be a powerful lobby working for the raptor, big cat, and primate people (you wouldn't think there were THAT many private people keeping raptors for example)...but when legistlation or misinformation is rampant rarely does anyone speak up in the herp community. Perhaps those groups have done a pretty good job of policing themselves? Things have been changing recently, so perhaps there are better things on the horizon. I hope you didn't take it as a personal attack, I had no idea of the denisty of regius populations until I looked into it...it seemed to me that the numbers didn't jive with a sustainable harvest...but, apparently they do.

Horridus

I think we are probably a bunch of dedicated loners.

I dunno though... I kinda feel like this group would band together if say NERD, Ralph Davis, VPI, and a bunch of other well-known big guys put together a non-profit organization for this kinda thing. Once it becomes the "in" club, it shouldn't take long for everybody and their brother to jump on the band wagon.

Either way I feel like we could all benefit from putting together some kind of an organization like that - and our animals could too!

~Rebecca
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0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

First, anything anyone purchases, not taken care of, will not do well in captivity. I don't care if it's a Bull snake, Box turtle, Russian Tortoise, or a WC Ball Python.
This topic is what I call... mis-information, that is regurated by unknown people, who just repeats what they "think" they know for as a fact.
Here, let me lighten your knowledge a little:
Every Morph (not the man made ones, like bumble bees) that is now being bred by the thousands in captivity was started with a WC animal. Pastel, yep WC animal. Albino, yes again, WC animal. Ghosts, clowns, spider, well the list goes on.
There have been some adult gravid females that were imported years ago, that are currently in alot of breeding programs. Lavender Albinos, Pastels, Black Backs, Burgundy's, Yellow Bellies, again the list goes on.
To just give a blank statement, that these females lay their eggs, and then just die, is irresponable babble.
I personally selected 18 WC females last season, and I'm sure to your surprise to hear, each and every one is eating and thriving in my personal collection. This season, I again have selected a nice number of excellent patterned animals to hold back.
I don't have to explain myself or why I do what I do.
It's legal, ethical and in no way harming the wild population.
Ball Pythons are an encomical resource used by West Africans, just like White Tail Deer and Bass Fishing are here.
I'm not asking you to agree with me, but to just out and out lie that WC females die or do poorly is a lie that is repeated over and over. Sure, there are some that don't settle in and thrive. But there are CB animals that don't make it either, for one reason or another.
I preach, that we need to learn more and work harder with this species, not just listen to the idiots that regurge everything they hear, and not find out if it's a fact or not.
We, as hobbyists, need to look for the facts, not just what people state is true, without backing up that fact.
In closing, ask some of the big name breeders, see if they have any WC females in thier collections. Any WC pastels, WC ghosts, WC lavender Albinos, WC Yellow Bellies, WC.... well, you get the idea. WHERE ARE ALL THESE MORPHS COMING FROM? That is all I ask, think ........

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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

........I know a guy that got a huge female.......she dumped 18 eggs.was traded off...and died....

I know a guy that got gravids...they dropped....don't know....I think he got alot of male normals........and the females are alive...but suck bigtime and eat very few times a year.....gerbils too......

I bought 12 wild 1000 gram girls.one died soon after......a guy took 3 home.they died quickly?...why I don't know....he has 30 years experience......the other 8 all started eating mice (one hamsters).......and they all sucked over a year later.hated people..and were not going to be good breeding stock....and I sold them all...........and yes I told the people exactly what they were........sold them all cheap too....lost time....

meanwhile I keep my own captive stuff and breed them in 18 to 20 months and get 9 eggs.......

yellowbelly..from wild stock.....male.....he eats..he's 4 foot.....he been around awhile.....he has 5 girls and doesn't even flirt with any of them......so I gave him a sixth girl and he copulated with it......stupid.......give me 5 and I won't need a sixth woman........wait.there are 7 days in a week.ok.I take 6......

another yellowbelly male....year old....wild......won't pop, won't probe ,won't eat, and won't breed.......oh well.......
.
wild critters suck.........

yes most morphs started wild stock.......but they are males alot.......and are small and aren't the prettiest examples of the morphs..and are replaced asap with new baby captive stocks....

wild sucks in my mind..
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...........all you have to do is try it........
...........studies are fun.............

Traded off and died. Sounds fishy to me. Problem with most of these "troubled" animals is, are they being treated? Set up so they are not stressed out? I can ask a hundred questions, but I think none could be answered.
Like my last post, unless these animals are taken care of, and not treated like throw away animals, they will be just that, something to get eggs out of, and then tossed aside.
I take good care of my females, and they respond in a postive way. I have NEVER had a WC Ball Python, male or female, that I could not get to feed, and thrive in Captivity.
I believe, and it's only a theory, that most don't want to waste their time with WC's. They think, because they heard or read that WC are a pain, and not worth wasting time on. This is repeat so much that most don't even try.
I don't believe everything I read. I look for the truth. I do my own research, to prove or disprove certain things that are stated as fact here in these fourms.
I've been keeping and breeding Reptiles since the late 70's.
If it wasn't for all the Hamper's, Applegate's, Clark's, Love's (this list can go on for quite a while) that did all the dirty work, that got most of these Mainstream Reptiles to thrive in Captivity and Breed, there wouldn't be a hobby today.
To the people reading these post, if you don't wish to work with WC animals, then don't. Don't waste your time if your not willing to put in alot of work with them.
But, don't trash the people who wish to do so.
Every year, I find some real nice animals that I purchase, work with, and get going for further Breeding projects.
I believe this new blood is what is needed for the ncxt Fancy Morph. So does alot of Breeders.
It's not for everyone, not everyone wants to work that hard, and that is fine.

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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

I purchased 2 very large females last season, they both dropped eggs and both went off feed for many months. I got them both feeding on African Rats, one will now only eat africans and the other will eat whatever you put in the cage, they are both gaining weight but in no way in shape to breed again this season.
I have talked to many many breeders and have found that 75% of imported gravid females that do lay and that do live do not breed for the next few years in captivity. I am not saying that they never will but I guess you can say there a little messed up from different countries and climates, no matter how much or hard we try to replicate thier wild enviorment it will never be 100% the same, some females take years to adjust.

I do not feel that importing these females are wrong, each year the different countries get quotas from fish and wildlife in their area, they are already restricted to how many CH babies, how many adult males and females and how many gravid females can leave the country. As others have said they are no were near exstinction. But there is a set amount by the country on how many animals are allowed to leave the country with no ill effect to the enviorment.

I have heard horror stories of imports and i have heard many sucsess stories also, it really depends on the animal and the owner and thier knowledge on imported animals. Some people have a knack for wild animals, others do not. Those that do not have experience in owning wild animals and have questions on feeding and care should not buy them.

Again Just my thought , experience and knowledge from other breeders and myself.

KIM
N.A.R.C

np
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Sorru but WC or CB i care for all the herps the same. I love all and i have no problems feeding either of my bps. I agree alot of people just toss aside the thought when they hear WC, they just don't want to put forth the effort. It's just like pretty much taking a per say rattle snake from your back yard(granted some of you don't live near rattlesnakes just using as a metaphor) then sticking it in a cage and trying to make it do whatever you want! Sometimes they give you trouble! That's dealing with herps. I don't think you should shun the animal for it or say they suck because of it! Sometimes they just can't adjust becasue they are not used to "people" regulating what they do and eat and so on!

wild rattler from your yard is moved 100 feet and wild balls are stuffed into sacks and boxes with hundreds more and not watered for weeks.........
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...........all you have to do is try it........
...........studies are fun.............

I wasn't dumping on anyone.......my opinion is that wild stuff sucks........

..I don't want to waste time.......why bother.......my thought......yet I kept a wild eastern milk 10 years and when I finally got him a mate........10 years later under same rock........he went and died on me......so I am willing to waste time on some stuff......not wild balls........

.......70's ...yea...wild times........and the people that started this hobby........yea...we chatted alot back in the days......LOL..........back when morphs and shows were just starting.........

........

.......captive balls.........yet people don't buy them........and offers of $8 make me sick..............
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...........all you have to do is try it........
...........studies are fun.............

Good don't bother, just have a bad input i think. SOrry i like all herps wether wild caught or cb. No difference if you ask me! If you into them enough it shouldn't matter and there should be no problem. Sorry!

bad imput???????

Facts......

......don't you get it.........?

buy wild 1200 gram female and in a year plus it eats yet shrinks to 950 grams let's say......

same time frame .....hatch a baby and feed it and in a little over a year it weighs 1200 grams then more then lays 9 eggs...

yea.......just a bad attitude on my part???

LMLFAO.......

................how many snakes do you own?.......

when dealing in the hundreds.....wild isn't the way to go.....
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...........all you have to do is try it........
...........studies are fun.............