Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I thought I posted this but I couldn't find it on the forum...

I love your set up, and was wondering if you could tell me
where you bought your items.
I like your water pond/dish, I worry about the babies getting in and out of the dishes, this would solve the problem.
Thanks~Nikki

I sent you a reply, I think. I am new at box turtles myself. I think you mean me..I don't see any other Terry's. If you do mean me...I got everything at Petland Discount. But go to TurtleTails.com. They have loads of pictures of their set ups. That is the best site. I copied everything from their pictures. Plus they give you so much info. on all box turtles, and water turtles. On this message board, there are some really great "experts" who have helped me with so many problems. I wish some of them would post pictures of their set ups so we can learn from them. I really only have water turtles, and this is my first Box turtle since I was a kid. Good luck, and post pictures when you are finished.
Terry

lol, yes I meant you, I shoud have added the o to the end of your name...ooops

Thank you for your helpful reply.
I have been to TurtleTails many many times over the years
its a great site

Thank you for letting me know where you got your items..
I did go to Petlands, but I don't see the "thing" you
are using that holds the water....is it in the reptile pages?

Again, awesome set up, just beautiful and so healthy for
you baby What a great pic of your boxie too
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

Hi I only read my e-mail but now I just read these messages, and see that you have the hood with the three way bulbs in it too. Lots of people tell you not to put them in a tank. But for the hatchlings, so many people told me to set up a vervarium, as it keeps in the humidity. Especially in the winter when you have the heat on. Anything else dries up faster. I was told to put lots of plants in the tank for humidity, a hot spot, a cool spot and place to hide. On the hot side I put a flat rock, to bask in the "sun", a little house on the cool side, to get out of the "sun", and on one side the water dish. you can't see all that in these pictures. Like I said I copied everything from TurtleTails. Just go their there and look at all the pictures. I have a large outdoor pen for when she gets bigger (much bigger).

I just read your email as well, I had to laugh when you said you dug it up looking for him, I have done the same thing ..lol

My herp vet also recommended setting the tank up as a vivarium
for these little babies. He also said to use the lighting as well, but I do like to get other opinions from peoples own experiences.

Your baby is just beautuful
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

I would not recommend a glass tank either. Aside from the concerns mentioned by Wanda, there is is issue with transparency: turtles that can see out will try to get out, which can be exhausting for them of time. They are also more of a challenge to clean due to portability issues.

I'm surprised that a herp vet would state that a tank would be suitable for anything but an aquatic turtle, given what is now known about captive care in general.
I'm also suprised to see that you were able to buy two turtles that were less than 4" in length from a petstore...

As for a water dish: I have found that unglazed clay plant saucers (found in most garden centers),are very suitable: their surface is not slick or slippery and the sides are typically sloped enough to provide easy access.

>>I'm also suprised to see that you were able to buy two turtles that were less than 4" in length from a petstore...

That doesn't surprise me because there are so many loopholes to the 4 inch law.
There's a pet store here that sells hatchling turtles all the time 2 for 10 bucks. They sell parvo infected puppies, mite infested hedgehogs in such bad shape all the quills fall out. Rabbits with ear mites & it's not rumors. I have first hand knowledge of all this. I went in to check the place out myself one day & personally heard the store owner tell a customer that he need not bother with taking the puppy he was buying to a vet, no she'll do all the vaccinations for him for a much cheaper price. She can't do the rabies vaccine in this state, that's illegal & I don't have first hand knowlege of her doing that. Wish I did!
This store has been reported to Animal Services & the game warden over & over by several people I know.. my summer teaching partner knows the #2 man at Animal Services personally & I heard her myself tell him ALL of this then he did say they would investigate the store yet again as this was not the first complaint but nothing happened. They are happily open, no interruptions in business.
I don't know why they are open but they are.

I also know of other pet stores selling hatchling turtles & they get away with it too.
Go figure!
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PHRatz

As I mentioned poor Mazie was sick from day one
and I spent thousands on her care over the years...

Not that I want to open myself up to more criticism on how I
over paid etc.... but I paid 80.00 a piece.
I thought the price for captive bred, well looked after
healthy babies was worth it.
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

>>As I mentioned poor Mazie was sick from day one
>>and I spent thousands on her care over the years...
>>
>>Not that I want to open myself up to more criticism on how I
>> over paid etc.... but I paid 80.00 a piece.
>>I thought the price for captive bred, well looked after
>>healthy babies was worth it.

I wouldn't critisize, if that price did buy you healthy babies, good deal.
I've spent thousands over the years on all the turtles we have, the tortoise, the parrot we caught in the backyard. I'm about to spend some more on one turtle, he's getting a new tank this weekend when we drive 110 miles to get the darn thing since nobody here can find a 40g breeder for me, not by name not by dimensions. Don't even ask how much I've spent on rat vet bills in 12 years....
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PHRatz

It is frustrating. I am tired of complaining about a store near me too, selling skinny gecko hatchlings, obviously not eating well, too young to adapt to a new environment. And the "manager?" Oh, he is a certified wildlife rehabilitator...

Wanda

>>It is frustrating. I am tired of complaining about a store near me too, selling skinny gecko hatchlings, obviously not eating well, too young to adapt to a new environment. And the "manager?" Oh, he is a certified wildlife rehabilitator...
>>
>>Wanda

pfffffffffft
That sounds about right!!
Oh if I could only tell you what I know about the "manager" the "reptile expert" at another store here.
Frustrating it is!
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PHRatz

That stinks!

Based on what I've seen around here, pet stores won't sell any turtle under 4". Of course that doen't include the guys selling those plastic deathtraps and giving away the hatchling RES with it who set up shop at events.

>>That stinks!
>>
>>Based on what I've seen around here, pet stores won't sell any turtle under 4". Of course that doen't include the guys selling those plastic deathtraps and giving away the hatchling RES with it who set up shop at events.

Yeah I've seen that ploy too. We're not selling them so it's ok.
I got one seller shut down one year but then a few months later I saw her at another event selling baby turtles.
Then 2 weeks later I see a bunch of baby turtles at my vet's... why? Because they were sick & clients had brought them to the vet after buying them from the seller that I saw at the events.
At least some of the people did bring them to the vet, I wonder how many more of them died?
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PHRatz

Thats just awful I have heard on this site and other how
they sell RES and set ups, but have never seen anything like
that here. Maybe because we are a small state, it is easier to
regulate these things? Such a tragedy
-----
Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

>>Thats just awful I have heard on this site and other how
>>they sell RES and set ups, but have never seen anything like
>>that here. Maybe because we are a small state, it is easier to
>>regulate these things? Such a tragedy

Frankly from what I've seen of my local game warden office, they aren't very informed when it comes to wildlife.
When I had the gopher tortoise fall into my hands I contacted them, I had to tell them that he is a protected species.
I got him to the office because the man who should pick him up from me was out of town. So I get there, the captain said oh you can just take that out in the country & let it go.
I had to make him get on the Internet & show him myself that he is not native to this part of TX & NO I cannot just let him go. In the end they told me he went to S. TX I just hope that's true.
Recently my vet took in a bobcat because some dummy found it as a baby, tried to make it a pet then gee whiz what a surprise it grew up & it wasn't a pet.
My vet called the local game warden office for advice on how to get the right thing done for this bobcat & was told "you can just open the door & let it go"
:::::thud:::::
I don't understand why they don't seem to know much about wildlife when wildlife management is supposed to be their jurisdiction.
That's part of the problem around here.. they don't seem to care.
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PHRatz

" I don't understand why they don't seem to know much about wildlife when wildlife management is supposed to be their jurisdiction.
That's part of the problem around here.. they don't seem to care."

I was just having a conversation with someone about that.

I think that many folks in wildlife management are really more into the 'management' part of their job (i.e. the bureaucratic paper pushing), and don't really keep up with wildlife issues at all. Many of them have lost sight of the major part of their job description: the animals.

There are others that are all about enforcement, and usually in a really myopic way that makes very little sense.

Others are just focused on ways of saying "No, you can't do that" or "Just do this and get out of my hair".

It's exasperating.

>>I was just having a conversation with someone about that.
>>
>>I think that many folks in wildlife management are really more into the 'management' part of their job (i.e. the bureaucratic paper pushing), and don't really keep up with wildlife issues at all. Many of them have lost sight of the major part of their job description: the animals.

So it's not just here then...
One time I joined an online TX box turtle group who's goal is to get the state to start protecting box turtles from people who collect them in huge quantities to sell nationwide..
I mentioned this about the game warden.. I didn't call names or anything I just wrote down the facts then all I got for a welcome was chewed out for daring to have a problem with it.
I still get email from that group now & then but I've noticed it's a dead group, gee I wonder why?
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PHRatz

Oh yeah, I think that it's pretty pervasive.
It seems to just come with the territory: they get sucked in to being administrators.
I'm sure that there are so good people who work in those settings, and who are concened about wildlife (or at least started out that way), they just have a vastly different perspective.
It must be mind-numbing after a while, to work in an environment where any progress that gets made, is made VERY slowly indeed. I often wonder if that explains the attitude we sometimes see: they know how difficult it is to get anything to move forward, so they'd rather just not even try.

That's probably it, everything is so slow it's just too frustrating for them to keep trying.

Typical government type job I think...
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PHRatz

Oh, man, do I need to get my eyes checked...my typos are getting worse and worse with each passing day.
I really can spell, folks! Honest!

All I can say is WOW!
Too bad you can't vote them into office, or out in this case!
Kudos to you for following up, and showing them the
info on the gopher turtle, I sure hope the little guy made it
there ok.
-----
Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

>>All I can say is WOW!
>>Too bad you can't vote them into office, or out in this case!
>>Kudos to you for following up, and showing them the
>>info on the gopher turtle, I sure hope the little guy made it
>>there ok.
Thank you, I really hope he made it there too. If he is where they said he went then he's in a state park so he would be protected there. It's illegal to take ANYTHING out of a state park, including a rock, a piece of driftwood a flower.. anything so he should be ok there if he made it.

Yeah too bad we can't vote them in & out...
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PHRatz

Quote "I would not recommend a glass tank either. Aside from the concerns mentioned by Wanda, there is is issue with transparency: turtles that can see out will try to get out, which can be exhausting for them of time. They are also more of a challenge to clean due to portability issues. "............

~I don't mean to be rude, it is not my intention......
perhaps I was not clear enough in mentioning the hours and hours I have spent researcing, as well as having a long standing relationship with my herp vets, and 10 years experience with reptiles.... of course I covered the sides of the tank, and the corners have all been blocked off as well. It has also been
fitted with a circulating fan, on the opposite side from where the turtles are, as the vet suggested.

quote "I'm surprised that a herp vet would state that a tank would be suitable for anything but an aquatic turtle, given what is now known about captive care in general.
I'm also suprised to see that you were able to buy two turtles that were less than 4" in length from a petstore... "

It is not just my vet, there are plenty of herp sites who also
recommend this sort of housing for BABIES.
To name a few....
http://turtle_tails.tripod.com/raisingbabyturtles/tour1.htm
http://www.boxturtlesite.org/bred.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/felicerood/index-8.htm
http://animal-world.com/encyclo/reptiles/information/boxturtlecare.php#hatchling
http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/boxturtle.htm

Of course this is just for babies, I think we all agree a tank
of any size is not the proper housing when they are older.

As for the pet shop, if you had looked at the link I gave, you
would see that it is not an ordinary one, it is part of
New England reptile distributors.....
they breed and raise animals....have a reptile zoo, and do
live animal shows as well. Maybe that is why they are licensed to sell babies?

I thank you for your help on the water dish!

May I ask, for those of you who do not use tanks,(for babies)
Could you possibly post pictures of your set ups
so we can see what you have done?
Any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks~Nikki
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

I don't doubt that you did alot of research: I have too over the years, and continue to read about these wonderful creature. Probably in part because I get my information from different sources than you, we are of different opinions on the subject of glass tanks.

If a glass tank is what you have, then by all means use it. What will you be using once they outgrow the tank in a few months?

I used to use a 45 gallon 'breeder' tank for the first hatchlings I had here. I only used it for one season because I found it to be too problematic in such a variety of different ways.

I now keep my hatchlings in Rubbermaid totes (opaque sides, wide opening at top for good air circulation, very portable and easy to clean, reusable, non-breakable, inexpensive, more 'floor space' than glass tanks of comparable volume, etc., etc.). Glass tanks just fall short in many ways.

When warm weather arrives, I put the youngsters outside for several hours per day.

My adult turtles stay outside year round in a 1000sq. ft. habitat.

No photos at this time, but you probably know what a Rubbermaid tote looks like.

A note on the websites that you referenced, though:

One of them states that a small (20g) tank is adequate for a box turtle, and does not specifically state for a hatchling or young turtle only. That size container is woefully inadequate for an adult turtle, but they don't differentiate.

Another website that you shared with us states that hatchling box turtles should be kept in a tank with 1" of water in it. Box turtles terrestrial (albeit semi-aquatic) and should NOT be kept in water. That is a recipe for disaster, in my opinion.

Yet another site recommends feeding canned dogfood, corn and other food items as a regular part of the diet, that should be fed only sparingly, or avoided except in a pinch.

With the exception of Tess's, these are not websites that I would recommend that a turtle keeper turn to for accurate information on turtle care.

Sorry.

HI,

Yes I knew these sites were not 100% correct on everything,
I have yet to find even one that is!
I only meant them as guides...to show that many do think
glass tank, when set up correctly, is a good
housing option for babies.
I thought Turtle Tales was perhaps the best well rounded site.

As for what I will be using when Scooter and Hitch get
MUCH bigger, for the inside I have a 4 X 4 custom built "table"
This won't be big enough for the two, when they are adults.
We will add on to it, or plan something new.
Plenty of time to figure it out.

For the outside, we own 5 acres of land
and we have over an acre fenced in where we kept Mazie.
We have different safe zones set up.
For instance, if I wanted her outside, but could not supervise
her at the moment....we used an oversized screen door with the
frame, raised with concrete for burrowing safety...
when I can't be there, I set her in there,
close the light airy screen door, and she is safe from prey.
We will have no problem accommodating Scooter and Hitch
now or when they are full grown.

If you could, or anyone on the site could, I would like to see
how you set these tubs up. I have seen some on the net,
but I am curious how the 80% humidity is kept, and what one
does for lighting. Thank you in advance for any help ~Nikki
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

"Another website that you shared with us states that hatchling box turtles should be kept in a tank with 1" of water in it. Box turtles terrestrial (albeit semi-aquatic) and should NOT be kept in water. That is a recipe for disaster, in my opinion. "

For gawd's sake, avoid that advice at all costs! The bimbo who got that ball rolling on Internet chattering must have sold his animals before witnessing the shell rot, or they all died.

I did that, kept my boxie in wet peat following that ridiculous advice and nearly lost her to a nasty infection. It *was* a recipe for disaster, and I wish sites were more careful about what they post, being what gives information to beginners...

Wanda

>>As for the pet shop, if you had looked at the link I gave, you
>>would see that it is not an ordinary one, it is part of
>>New England reptile distributors.....
>>they breed and raise animals....have a reptile zoo, and do
>>live animal shows as well. Maybe that is why they are licensed to sell babies?
>>

It's possible that in a way they are. Like I said the 4 inch law has many loopholes & as much as I gripe about the local pet stores selling babies.. on the other hand depending on the situation I don't see anything wrong with it.
I gripe about my local pet stores doing it because they're horrible! If they weren't so horrible, dirty, uncaring.. it wouldn't bother me but I can tell that the people in these stores here don't care about the babies they care about the buck and that is all.
I paid money for my western painted as a CB hatchling, he came from a breeder at a reptile show in 1994.
He's been nothing but healthy his entire life, I've never regretted buying him as a hatchling.
Everything has a good side and a bad side.. so if you got good quality healthy babies, and I hope you did, then great!
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PHRatz

Yes, they are very healthy
Here in NH, you can not buy a turtle under 4"
I called every shop in my state looking for an box turtle
only 2 even had turtles at all!

We went to the closet one first.. the 2hours- to look.
It was just appallng the condition these animals were kept in.
They were very sick, poor things couldn't even open their eyes
I had a HUGE fight with the owner, he told me to mind my own
business, I told him animal abuse WAS my business and that
I was reporting him! And I did!! TO everyone I could think of,
even their local police department. I will keep calling too
to see if they are shut down, or forced to provide better care!
I wanted to rescue those poor turtles, it took everything
I had to walk out without them.

We then called Zoo Creatures, they were 3 hours from us, but
we thought we would try, tho my heart was heavy, and I didn't
have much hope. But it turned out to be wondeful!
I was very impressed with the place.
There was not one piece of stale food etc...it was pristine
and the animals were very well looked after.
We are taking my niece and nephew their this spring to see the
Zoo, its by appointment only.

I think captive bred is the only choice, I am just overjoyed
with my babies
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

I know lots of people say don't use a Tank. My herp vet said use a large virvarium for temporary housing for a sick boxie ,who needs lots of humidity or one that can't hibernate, or one that has to come in because of harsh weather, and always use a virvarium for a hatchling as it holds the humidity better. Also he said make sure that it has lots of plants, and it should be set up as close to the natural habitat of the turtle. Of course, he told me that an outdoor pen is eventually the best when it is older.
As for the unglazed clay plant saucers, I have tried them, and find that the water "leaves the dish" very fast as it is porous.Like I said, I am new at Box Turtles, so I pester my Vet. He must be sick of me.
Terry

>>Like I said, I am new at Box Turtles, so I pester my Vet. He must be sick of me.

Maybe not. There are some vets who are really very interested in what they do & they love to have clients who want to learn all they can.
Vets have to deal with a lot of people who are horrible pet owners and when they see one who's different sometimes it makes their day!
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PHRatz

I have to agree. My vet has been wondeful with me.
He treated Mazie for 5 out of the 7 years I had her, and
he cried right along with me when I lost her.

I got Scooter and Hitch on Sunday, he saw them first thing
on Monday lol. And I have called him at least twice a day since
These turtles are really healthy, and I want to insure they
STAY that way! Not that I regret one day of Mazies habitual
medication and care, but it is a joy to see how healthy
turtles act, play and eat!
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.