Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The 3 posts below outline what is to come for this hobby if it continues down the path we are on. This is the same reason the American Kennel Club exists (for dogs) to keep people from calling even the slightest difference a new animal. Just becuase you breed a dark normal to a light normal and get medium normals doesn't make the mediums a new morph.

For any industry to survive it must have some governing rules so the "bad eggs" (not naming names or pointing fingers) cannot mis-lead the new hobbiests.

Everyday on the classifieds you see new "morphs" with great marketing names that all look the same and usually are 100% Hets (which means "trust me" cause there is no way to know for sure).

We are a self regulating hobby so I bring up this question to see what everyone else thinks...what are we to do?

I agree that there needs to be a way to regulate the animals and keep the breeders in check. The problem is developing an ecredited society to regulate, track, and maintain a enormous data base. It would require masses amounts of manpower and would create many other difficulties. THe only way to properly attempt this would mean every single Ball python would have to be micro-chipped. Every clutch would have to be registered and all deaths would have to be acknowledged. It would be a full time positions to run this non profit organization.
If there was a method of tracking then genetic make-up of the Balls and identifying the genes that are affected by the different morphs then you could isolate all the genes. Then it would be possible to do a DNA test on your snake(s) and it would be able to identify it as a true het or a normal. Being able to genetically map the snakes would revolutionize the industry but I doubt that that will happen in the near/far future. Todd

What a crock!

EDUCATE yourself before you buy. Know what you are buying. If a newbie buys a wc unproven morph, and it does not prove out, they just educated themselves. Sure, a free education would be nicer, but chances are you only get burned once before you figure it out, once before you really do your research on the morph, the breeder, the seller, etc. There are several sellers that I have mentally red flagged, and do not even open their ads. It is really pretty easy to figure out who is who in this industry. Buy from a breeder or Ben Siegel. I personally think Jon from Nextworld Exotics does it perhaps better than anyone. His website has a list of animals he bred, and a list of animals he "got in," labeled as possible morphs. He has some nice ones too!

To think some database somewhere would be at all efficient or effective is ridiculous - hell most of the "big 10" can't even keep their websites updated*** what makes you think they will get around to submitting their breeder list of the year? Not to mention who is going to go about micro chipping the hundreds of thousands of imports every year. Education over regulation - that includes educating the government too.

*** Note to big 10 please dont take that as a dig I know you guys are busy and have other priorities.
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Tosha

Why ridiculous? They have been doing it with dogs for over 100 years. Of course not everyone will do it but for those that do there has to be some benefit.

As for the WC comment these are the issue just look at all the adds for unproven "morphs" - how do you know with a HET anyway?

Please don't take this are being argumentative I am just trying to make people think and not react.

I understand your point - but please understand that traits do not make the morph - genetics do and genetics can't be faked or evaluated.

Education on what you are purchasing is the ONLY way to prevent being taken. Educated breeders pay big money every year on animals that may or may not be genetic - sometimes they win sometimes they dont - if someone want to take a gamble on an unproven animal then that is up to them.

And yes - as long as the advertiser does not pass an animal off as being proven to be something it's not then they can slap a name on it and market it for what they want - an educated buyer will ask questions, find out all the facts and feel comfortable with their purchase before they spend the money.

My unproven Paisley Ball™ Not for sale

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Tosha

Please explain how you had your animal "trade marked?"
Thanks,
RicK
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RicK & Caitlyn @ Ball Boutique, Inc.

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Who are the "big 10?"
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RicK & Caitlyn @ Ball Boutique, Inc.

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Why is it a crock? Just because you don't like the idea? I have seen the comments around the Emberball and your other snakes I would think you would like this type of verification (to others) that all your hard work has paid off?

So much for an intelligent conversation about this topic.

The problem is, I have two morphs that look like Fires. Some say they are Fires, some say no freakin way are those Fires. Some said they were Vanillas, others said no way. Are we going to have one person, or panel decide what WC wannabe is a morph and what is not a morph? I do not think so. As a consumer, know what you are buying, and buy from someone who knows what he or she is selling. It is that simple. If I want a Clown, I call EBN, VPI, SK etc., but if I want a new project, I paruse the classifieds looking at what Ben, Jon, etc. has, that looks like it might be a snake worth working with. BUT, I realize that a wannabe is not a substitute for a proven morph. Snakes are not dogs.

Dave...that is the perfect example. You have snakes that are "new" morphs that you are proving out...correct? So in this case it doesn't matter what others think when you prove them and go to sell them you have the lineage and the background on them. You are taking the time and should reap the reward for this effort to "create a new morph". But what about after your prove them the guy that says he hasa WC HET Emberball (wanabee) and wants to capatlize on your work?

This is what is happening now in the classifieds. So in a way snakes are exactly like dogs. Everybody wants the purebreed but wants to pay for the mutt.

But again I started this post just to see how everyone felt and so far everyone is against it and thinks it OK as is so no harm no foul.

The Ember and Sulfur morphs have been proven to be genetic, proven to cross nicely into the Pastel, and in the case of the Sulfur, nicely into the Mojave also.

I have had literally dozens of emails over the past few years asking me if I thought they had an Ember. Some obviously were nothing but nice normals, others, they might have something, and I was honest in all of my responses. But, you need to breed it at least once to see what happens, before you can go calling something a morph. Alot of people wanted to put me in with the people selling fake, WC and unproven morphs. While I understand that to completly finish a project out, you need to produce a Super, or NOT produce a Super, if you have a Dom gene, but I at least have proven my animals genetic. I have at least bred them multiple years, and myself and Eric have both gotten the same Sulfur morph, so unless it is something in the water-Eric and I both live in Southern CA-the Sulfurs are genetic. The problem is, it is easy to catagorize an Albino, maybe a Ghost, and a Pied, but when it comes to Cinns, Fires, YB's, my snakes, it is way to hard, and impossible to say for sure, 100% yes or no, which is why a board or a panel will never work.

I am sure there will be other lines of both of my morphs, heck, there is a small, VERY small chance that the Ember and Sulfur could be the same morph. I highly doubt it, and the further along I get, I doubt it more and more, but there are going to be other Embers out there. All I ask is put Unproven, or WC, in your ad, and not guess at what you have. Can you say for sure, what the snake in this pic is?

Not to jump on the "produce a super before you name it bandwagon" again, but I will. You say that a registry and a stardardized panel of what a morph is won't work because what happens when someone imports the "het" version of a co-dom. Well that person has to put in the years to prove that individual out, simple as that. I am one of those that think your ember is a new line of fire and after you put the time into the project, we'll all see for sure. If it proves out to be a fire, why should it still be named "Ember"? Simple, it shouldn't. It causes confusion just like the vanillas and thunders (they were proven by GCR and they named it vanilla and that is the name they should go by). The person that proves out a morph gets the priviledge of naming it. That's the way it always has been so why change it now, because people want toot their own horn. If there was a registry for the morphs with a "morph" standard that is developed after multiple generations of breeding, the confusion of "is this a fire/yb/vanilla/cinny/phantom" will be decreased.

So how does a new wc animal get added to the registry, simple it is bred out COMPLETELY with photo documentation of the resulting generations and if the final morph created (super or homozygous animals) fits with the morph standard then that animal is accepted as are the offspring created from it.

This type of system would only bring positive attention to our already condemned hobby. The question is, who is going to have the desire and money to back such an endeavor.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

So, by using your logic, the Spider Ball, may not have a name still, as no Super has been proven. No Pinstripe, and I am 99% sure, no, make that 100% sure that the Mojave was named and sold and purchased by very happy people, WELL before the Super was produced. You forgot about the YB and Goblin too.

Dave

if you read what I typed, it said one must put the time in to prove out the morph completely. After breeding back the founding father to a couple of the resulting morph females it can be safe to say whether it is a co-dom or dom trait or just a fluke. And about the spider, at the time it was originally produced the amount of knowledge that we had regarding genetics in snakes was limited to mostly recessive traits and a few co-doms. Now that we know how complex some morphs are it is our responsiblity in order to advance this hobby to make sure we know what we are talking about and offering for sale before we open our mouths. Like it or not, that is how it should be.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

"Like it or not, that is how YOU think it should be." Who are you to say how anything should be done? Have you been in my shoes, have you been in my position? I doubt it. The Pin was named, still no super, the Spider was named, no super, probably never will be, but was named before we knew if there was a Super. The Mojave was named well before the Super Mojave was produced. Now, in those examples, there were no morphs that the Spider could be, the Pin could be, the Mojave, well, Phantom, but you get my point. So it is a bit different than my position, where the Ember was named, and could be a Fire. However, like I have said a hundred times, I was told, by more than one person, that even if you prove a new line of Fire, produce a White snake with Black eyes, that it cannot be named Fire. Is the 100% true and accurate, I do not know, but I know people named Fire look alikes names like OnFire, and others. So, I followed suit and named mine a Fire like name, Ember. I also did it because I had two snakes, possible new morphs, that looked very similar. It took half a page of explaining which one was which each time I got an email about one or the other, so calling one Ember and one the Unproven Hypo was easier than writing a half page explaination each email. The Sulfur is a different story. I honestly think it will prove out to be something new. At the Anahiem show, a Sulfur was shown around,(not by me) to most of the big breeders, and I was told they all said it was not a Fire, and not a Vanilla. At that time, growing tired of calling it Mojave cross, or Mojave cross morph, it was way too confusing, I decided to name it, for ease of communication. Now, if you think I named it only to act like a big shot, go ahead and keep thinking that. You obviously know about 10% of the story, but like so many Internet antagonists, think you know 100% of the story. You are going to keep thinking your way, and I will know the whole story, and keep thinking my way. What about the Yellow Belly and Goblin, probably the same morph, but just because Ralph is Ralph and I am not, the same rules do not apply to me...the right to name a snake that I have reproduced genetically? What about the Thunder and Vanilla? You are about 10 years too late, to have it your way, sorry.

whoaaa there. I have never critisized you or your projects other than agreeing with you about the poor pictures, in fact I've actually stated on these forums and others that you have some very good projects there with the "embers" and "sulfurs". You want to go and give a big speach about how things were done in the past, yes the spider was named and sold before there was a super, yes the mojave was sold and named before a super, yes the pin was sold and named before a super, but at the time genetics were up in the air and most of the co-doms had supers (refering to not just ball pythons) so it made since to assume that these would too. Well we learn from our mistakes or at least we should (there I go assuming what everyone should do).

You also stated it can take up to 10 years to prove out a morph, name one that has taken that long and proved out. If someone starts with a homozygous recessive animal or a het co-dom or dom you are looking at 3-5yrs to breed it out to either prove it is a recessive animal or produce a super once the founding animal breeds.

I guess I'm an idealist and I think that we should (yes I think)do everything in our power to have a full understanding or at least almost full understanding of what we are selling. Yes i know that when projects are started it helps to have some income generated from them and it does make sense to name the morph once it has been recreated and release a few animals that aren't needed to breed the project out. But it also makes sense that if that morph turns out to be an already established morph then it should be recognized as such and that is what a registry would be helpful in doing. You brought up the goblin, I and others have stated many times that confusion would be lessened if the name was dropped and yb was used. but also like you said, who the heck am I to state anything. I guess the saying educated buyers will know what they are buying and uneducated buyers will learn after they've been burnt once or twice doesn't sit right with me. we as responsible herpers should (there I go again) do everything we can so people don't get burnt.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

The difference between what you and I think, sounds like it boils down to this: You think the YB and Goblin confuse people, same snake, different names. I do not think it should confuse anyone LOOKING TO BUY EITHER. If a newbie, just looking around, but not looking to buy anything, sees a pic of a YB and sees a pic of a Goblin, sure, might be confused, until they read some more. Any educated buyer is going to know what they are buying, and should not be confused at all. I do not think that it is confusing at all, Goblin/YB, Vanilla/Thunder, what is SO confusing?

at this point in the industry it isn't very confusing mainly because most people that fork out several hundred to several thousand dollars on any snake are doing their homework before they buy. The problem that will arise is when these morphs, just like the pastel get down to the price that the average hobbyist can afford. We've been following these projects since their conception and thus know what is going on, the future newbies will not know initially when they see a pretty ball python in the pet store for $250 what all the names are and seeing several that look exactly alike but different names could be confusing and it would be beneficial to avoid those scenerios. Also with a registration system I believe it would bring further validation to those that were the first to get in on a morph when everyone that chooses to register their snakes gets to see that person's name on the "papers/pedigree" just as much as being the one that named the morph. Granted there would be some huge bugs that would need to be ironed out if such a registry every comes to existance but it could be a project that could work.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I also like your thoughts on telling others what they can sell and what other, educated and willing consumers can buy. It might take 10 years to prove out a morph, completely, are you saying that the original breeder needs to keep back all 500 or so animals that he has produced along the way, and not offer any for sale, completely educating the buyer on what he or she is getting? Come on, it is just not realistic.

Dave

I agree that it is always the buyers responsibility to educate themselves on their purchase and on the seller. I am just stating that a registration system would aid this and limit the possibility of fraud. I have spoken with numerous breeders and hobbyists over the years and regardless of how notable or huge a breeder is a have heard of certain people getting burnt by the biggest. Whether it was intential or accidental who knows. But some sort of system would help this. Now, is it feasible? I doubt it. Is it practical? I personally do not think so. The size of this undertaking is too enormous. I was just trying to put in some intelligent convorsation on the topic, even if it is just hypothetical. Todd

It would be much easier to put togather a list of breeders who have, breed, and sell a certain morph. Have a list of Pastel breeders, Clown breeders, etc., so someone looking for a certain morph can look at the list, see who might be closer to them, have a better price, etc. That is about as far as I would go.

But isn't your idea somewhat of a registration list? You would know where the morph started and then everyone who is currently breeding that morph?

As you can see it is not as far fetched an idea as it may sound like on the surface. Sure what Todd and I have said could be pie in the sky (and ultimately impossible) but everything has to start somewhere.

I would say if KS put up a forum to display your new snake, something you think is a morph, that would be about as far as I would want to take it. Really thinking about it, all you have to do is put a pic of a snake up on the KS forums, and you pretty much get your answer, like it or not.

Dave

Todd I Agree 100% I think you have it nailed right on the head . Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue

Good Points...but maybe it wouldn't need to be so indepth. First we know where the major "morphs" came from so we can track them back to them and we know their genetic traits (at least as the morph is concerned) so a lineage chart could be enough (with pictures). The issue really comes up when you start talking about new and/or WC animals. Where the current owner is trying to "discover" the next big morph. I would assume if you are serious then you would be willing to put in the time to prove it out? If not then it is simply a normal.

From the registration board perspective - we could treat is just like the AKC. The "board" determines the necessary traits needed to be considered a certain morph (yes some are easier then others) The breeder provides the lineage for any offspring. They are provided a reg. number. You would never have everyone but it would give newbies or those serious some comfort. Trust will still play a part.

This would serve to stop people from getting an animal, creating a cute name and charging 10X normal pricing as a morph wanabee.

(i.e. which unproven do you want to buy? a sunburt ($500), sundial($1000, starshine ($10000) or high yellow normal( $100) - and no I have no idea if these names already exist it is just the point)

I don't know maybe I am just trying to make sense out of a senseless hobby.

I thought this sounded like a good idea. I mean, what harm would it do? I don't see why so many people feel negatively about it. I mean, sure, I'm a newblet to the python scene (Hi, btw), but it still make sense. Cats and dogs have official breed lists or whatever.

Too much politics involved, too much power for one panel or board to have. Say big breeder on the Panel hates the Ember, and just bought 5 new Fires for big bucks. They could vote negatively on the Ember because it might impact their sales.

Dave

Only if the board had that kind of power. Which unless you are judging the animals I don't see a need for it. They would simply be there to follow-up to make sure the details were complete. As you outline above in your post the Emberball has been proven (repeately) so there is nothing to "vote" on.

Sort of I did or didn't follow through on this morph stamp of approval. And to your comment above require you put "unproven" in any listing.

I don't have all the answers but my guess is there are more "newbies" (like me) then established breeders and NO ONE wants to get taken. How many "lessons" does it take before you lose interst in this hobby. We need more people interested and wanting in this hobby so we can thwart the poticial interests of our governement.

Check out this link it may help the "newbies" It will be a book as soon as i get around to finishing it. Educating yourselves is the ONLY way not to get taken!
The Link --- www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm
Hope this helps
Jon
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Jon...Your hunters guide is the best around...and already bookmarked. Now if only ALL the morphs could be done this way then we would be set.

Great Job!

BTW...I sent you an email the other day about Het Ivories..did you get it?

simple, if you put the time in to fully prove out the ember as a fire and it produces a black eyed lucy, it's a fire. No voting around an disprove that so a breeder couldn't single you our and try to disallow you from registering your snake as a fire.

(no these are not attacks on your snakes or the name that you have given the, but if they prove to be fires it is my opinion and many others that they should be called fires. but what the heck, they could prove to be something else so this was really just a waste of my time to type).
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I honestly think that there is a decent chance that the Embers prove out to be Fires. The Sulfurs, I think will be something new, but who knows. I was told, years ago, that you could not use the name Fire legally unless it came from the original line. Ember was used to follow along with the Fire theme.

Dave

years ago to start an "AKC" type of registration organization for reptiles. They both gave up because of some of the reasons stated here, such as the politics of who claims what and somebody who doesn't agree with what someone else said, etc, etc,.

The reason the ACR (Amer. Cornsnake Registry) is working is because he skirted the whole "he said, she said" issue by making it a permanent database that is only as accurate the breeders posting the info. You might think that is not helpful, but think about how, over time, it will help keep records PERMANENTLY for the world to see. If you decide to fudge info, you better be careful because somebody is likely to see inconsistencies over the long run. It is still up to the customer to decide who is trustworthy or not. But after several generations are posted, with photos, customers can look at the photos and info and decide for themselves if the morph in question is real, imagined, or worth their while. Most scammers are not going spend years putting false info into it when it is much easier to rack up some $$$ selling false hets and then getting out of the game.

The ACR has only been around for a couple of years, so it is too early for it to be used to its full potential. But so far, I don't see any downsides. Once several generations of many bloodlines are entered, "breed clubs" (such as in the dog and cat world) can be started to decide on standards for "breeds" or to set up shows, or whatever the members decide they would like to do. It takes a long time for such things to get going, and a number of enthusiasts to spearhead it.

But in the meantime, something like the ACR can preserve photo records of bloodlines while projects are still young, and before valuable info gets lost because of computer crashes, human error, disorganization, or whatever other reasons may cause it. When all of the info and photos are laid out for the world (and each customr to see), it is much easier for them to make up their own minds and to make an educated decision.

that no one replied or commented on your reply. Well said Kathy...you bring up a lot of good points. Since I currently have around 150 snakes....most of them being an even split between boas, ball pythons, and colubrids (mostly corn snakes)....I tend to frequently browse all forums related to these animals. Anyway, my point is that there are vast differences between 'corn breeders' vs 'BP breeders' vs 'boa breeders' and it seems that BP breeders/keepers have lots more work ahead before unifying and developing something like the ACR...especially since there is so much more money involved with BP's.

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Sincerely, Jason
www.NortheastSnakes.com
NortheastSnakes@verizon.net

even though the BPs are worth more, and the BPs business seems a a bit more "intensively competitive" than corns, it seems that something like the ACR would be a good place to start. That is epecially true for the smaller, less known breeders who want to "lay their cards on the table" to show their pedigrees to all who want to look. A more highly "policed" organization can always be started later, if the bugs can ever be worked out to make it work.

After many generations, some loss of data will occur, especially as some of the morphs become common, and especially normals that have a low possibility of carrying some particular hidden trait(s). When those traits and combinations start popping up in the future, it would be really great to be able to look up the ancestry in a data base open to all, including photos.

The BP explosion is newer than corn morph breeding. We now have hybrids mixed in and all kinds of known and unknown traits lurking in the background of most c.b. corns. BP morphs are still in the early enough stages to document the ancestry right to the original imported wild animals in many cases. Some breeders will be careful enough, and organized enough, to keep those records perfectly. Others won't be, or will suffer record loss through computer crashes, natural disasters, fires, or whatever. It sure would be great to have a great genetic resevoir of pedigree info in one place.

I thought your focus was only on corns (and a few ATB's). I love it when I find out that large scale breeders like yourself have other projects/interests. What all do you keep in the way of BP's? or anything else for that matter. I've been dying to get into ATB's for a while now after seeing a couple of pics you posted years back. I'll be honest...I'm not heavily into the BP market but I 'dabble' in a few like the albino, pied, and pastel traits. I'm patient and simply keep waiting until the morphs I want are more affordable, especially since I don't make enough to buy a BP morph worth a couple hundred dollars on a whim. Corns will always in my collection since they were the start of my herp interest over 12 yrs ago. However, now I'm usually found cruising through the Boa forum since most of my collection consists of dwarf locality/island boas. I'll admit it...despite having registered as an ACR breeder, I'm so busy trying to keep up with about 150? herps, a wild 2 yr old, and work...that I rarely have time to surf the net anymore let alone register all my corn stock...but maybe i will now that you've inspired me.lol
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Sincerely, Jason
www.NortheastSnakes.com
NortheastSnakes@verizon.net

I don't want to get too heavily into BPs as they are not my main focus. I really love the pieds and bumble bees, and maybe some of the combos that will go well with pieds and pastels. But I am not too intersted in a lot of the other types, at least at this time.

I have 24 c.h '04 females to play with - got them as yearlings. And an adult male albino, adult male pastel, and a baby male pied, and extra baby male pastel. And a baby female pastel, and some het baby females to go with the other males, plus a little female het citrus ghost. That, along with whatever females I produce and keep back, should give me plenty to play with. Guess I will have to pick up a spider along the way for the bumblebees though.

I just saw both of my adult males hooked up with a couple of normal females a week or so ago. Although I have bred Burms, ATBs, and a few other boas and pythons over the years, it is a first for me for BPs. So it is pretty exciting. Hope I get some good eggs. I would love to raise up some of my own female pastels and het albinos.

I used to have so many differnt kinds of projects, mostly snakes, but some lizards too. All kinds of colorful tree vipers, tree boas and pythons, red tegus - lots of fun stuff. Pretty much gave it all up for corns, lol! Most of it I don't miss too much, but some I do. The ATBs are my first foray into getting back into some other projects I used to do. Maybe might get back some others too, but only if I cut down on the corns. I am a one person business, so I have to try to keep it at a level I can deal with.

I'll tick off a lot of people in the next few minutes. If you are easily ticked off, this probably refers to you. I will swing the wrecking ball. I hit a WTF moment while reading the posts for the last few days. Indiana wants to start requiring snake owners to register and chip their snakes. Everyone is outraged. Florida wants to start a chip and register program and that's OK. I posted a few days ago on this same topic for this very reason. Kathy Love sent me www.herpregistry.com as a reference. Thanks Kathy. These guys are doing it.

Dog Reference. If I want a Lab. I can buy a $50 house pet. I can buy a $200 registered house pet. Or, I can buy a $1000 show dog. What is the difference? What I intend to do with the dog. If I spend $50 for a pastel blah blah blah/who cares who's line it is as a pet. I don't care if it is a Pastel Starship Man in the moon or a pretty high yellow normal non-screaming, non-smoking ball python. If I spend $3500 for a Super Pastel as a proven breeder, the sucker better drop pastels every time it lays.

Now to drop the ball: I realize that the Almighty God Fathers of the Ball Maffia are busy and all, but it just seems like good business to be able to give a customer a little peace of mind to justify why I have decided to spend more for your snake than I did for my car or my college education. You guys post cute little pics of My new Morph every other day and you can't take a few more minutes to send them to a data base so they can be tracked for the benefit of all? Customer Service or are you in this just for the money and screw the customer. It is a benefit to be able to track an animal back to import. Good husbandry and sales practice require you to keep track of the animal already. If you sell an animal today and two weeks later your entire stock has IBD, how do you contact customers to check, or do you care?

Conflict of interest. It would be stupid to put breeders on the board. They have an interest in what is a standard. A vet or licensed herpetologist has knowledge with no interest. It's not that hard. I ask again, Are we in this for the love of the animals and the betterment of the hobby or are we in it for the money?

My ADD has kicked in and I'm sure I have overlooked several points I wanted to make. I love these guys and I love this hobby. Why not take a few extra steps to make it better?

Thanks for your time, I feel a little better now.
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Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win and never quit are idiots

Just an FYI....Indiana does not want to start tagging our snakes, they want to put restrictions on the size of snake a resident can keep without a permit.
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Nick

And what do you think a permit is doing .Registering you !!
thanks David

Sorry david but you are wrong....they are NOT asking for us to micro-chip our snakes. If the bill passes in which I do not feel it will based on the meeting today, The state would ask us to photograph each animal and describe in detail what it looks like. This is far away from micro-chipping our animals.

I guess if it will make you all feel better, why don't you start the process and micro-chip your snakes, create a database/website, shoot an e-mail to all the breeders/hobbyists/keepers/zoozs etc. and let them know that you are starting a program that will track every cluth hatched,purchase,animal sold,trade,death or breeder loan and see how that goes for starters. Good Luck
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Nick

I Did not say any thing to you about chips I said that by having to get a permit is a form of registration . So were did all the other come from ?

The only way to register a snake of any species 100% is to micro-chip the snake. The other stuff came from me reading the last few posts.

There are people in life who watch things happen around them and there are people in life who make things happen. My point with "all that other stuff" is to say whomever believes that we should have some type of registration process needs to either start it up or just not speak about it. Why recommend somthing if you have no intentions on reacting upon the issue?
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Nick

Yes but I understood you to say that you had to have a permit to have snakes over a cretin length . That implies the owner being permitted not the snake .I think we are just not understanding each other .
David

right on..let's put this one to rest
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Nick

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

I agree. I am willing to do my part. I need a list of all the breeders and importers you know and an e-mail or means of contact. I will e-mail, call, or write to as many of them as I can and have them contact as many customers as they can. We'll be realistic. The God Fathers have been in this for a while and to expect anyone to remeber every customer. There are enough people reading this right now to get the ball rolling. I need help with the database/storage area if anyone wants to pitch in. Anyone want to lay out a rough structure?
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When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, Teamwork results in collective laziness.

I don't think David was refering to micro-chipping but I could be wrong. I think he was refering to requiring a permit to own is just another way of saying register. I am glad the law doesn't look like it will pass for you guys. I think more government control is not the answer. I think, if we start our own Pedigree/Breeder Standard/Registration program, we could avoid a lot of the government enforcement. There will always be the pitt bulls and retics in every group of animal. If we are willing to start the programs ourselves, we can have more of an influence. All it takes is voluntary participation.

But that's what I think.
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When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, Teamwork results in collective laziness.

In a perfect world.....this might not be a bad idea. However, the "Ball Maffia" has made it what it is and it is so much frekin' fun!
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Nick

If I wake up with a horse head next to me...Or I guess a Ball head. I just see so much potential in this hobby. It's fun and always expanding. We can always hope.
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When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, Teamwork results in collective laziness.

You said a mouth full and I couldent agree with you more . thanks David

I'm just wondering what these benefits are.

I personally cannot see this as anything other than creating a bunch of unnecessary hoops that the industry as a whole would need to jump through. I can see a majority of people saying screw it and people will continue to buy them anyway because they are still creating quality animals. The time and cost alone would not be feasible and this database would just create a false sense of security and create more "exclusivity" in the ball world.

If you don't trust the breeder or the breeder doesn't stand behind their animals then don't buy - if you don't have the money then don't buy. It's not the breeders responsibility to make your financial decisions - it's your responsibility to do your homework and most breeders can give you alot of background on an animal you wish to purchase. And I for one would buy a good looking animal without a pedigree than an ugly one with one - be it a dog or a snake - but that is just me.

And I'm not being argumentative - as I said I honestly don't see one benefit to this so please enlighten me as to why this would be necessary in the ball python world.

Thanks.
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Tosha

A debate is good. An argument is the end of a conversation.

It shows the younger generations that we are serious about our hobby. Not just a bunch of backyard breeders and snake mills. Those who are willing to go an extra step to provide for the end user. A few days ago, we were debating the future of the hobby and how to get some "New Blood" buyers and hobbyists envolved. How to expand and get others involved.

A benefit? The program is up and running. My snake is chipped and registered. I have a genuine tracking device to prove the snake is mine. If I have a $XXXXXXX pastel/albino/spider/pied and it is stolen and recovered, I have a means to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that that is mine. Bob Clark had his albinoes stolen. The only way to prove they were his...Well, he was the only one with albinoes at the time. Today, how would you know.

Buying hets. By nature, hets are normals. If you breed hets. 100 times, you may never get homo. for what you were shooting. Even in doms. and co-doms. How do you know unless you can track it.
I don't know, maybe I just missed the boat.
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When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, Teamwork results in collective laziness.

That sounds good . David