Reptile & Amphibian Forums

computer has been down i have got ahold of some betadine 10% solution how do i use it how much do i dilute it? i have been srubbing them with a soft toothbrush is this ok?

Your pharmacy, or Walmart, sells betadine. It is a dark liquid in the first aid section, with witch hazel hydrogen peroxide, ets.

10% means you'll add 90 parts water to the dilution. For ex, in one of those medicine-measuring cups, you fill one of Betadine, and add nine full of water.

I scrub my torties in a solution like that often. use warm water. But if you suspect it is a shell rot infection, you still want the animal checked by a specialist. Often the shell rot shows up as a consequence of vitamin a deficiency, and the liver could be affected. It happened to one of mine. The vet gave her some shots of vit a, calcium, vit d, and a silvadene/antibiotic ointment that healed her up very nicely.

Wanda

It was days before I could see the vet for my turtle's infection. The receptionist recommended these betadine baths along with covering the ulcers with iodine tincture. So I bathed her several times a day, scrubbed her with a soft toothbrush, and applied iodine several times a day (easy on this one, though). She HAS to be dry! Excess humidity probably promoted the infection. Put her in a dry container, and keep her warm until you can see the vet, which you MUST do!

See if she'll eat, but she may be lethargic from feeling bad. In an extreme case, she may have to get a tube inserted through the neck into her stomach, if her head does not pop out to be force fed.

So, disinfect her, keep her dry, and warm, and call the vet. See if you can get her some vitamin shots, and calcium for the softening shell.

Wanda

they are only six month old bauries infection is very small how dry should they be the three that have it are separated from the 9 that dont they are eating fine i will increase their vit A

Where are you, and have you taken them to a vet for an accurate diagnosis?

"Often the shell rot shows up as a consequence of vitamin a deficiency, and the liver could be affected. It happened to one of mine."

I thought that shell rot was typically caused by a fungal or bacterial infection. I hadn't heard of a vitamin A connection for shell rot.
Can you share any references on that? I'd like to read more about it.

STEPHF what are your thoughts on leaving them dry it kind of scares me with bauries

Like I said, I was instructed to soak the turtle in Betadyne, wash with toothbrush, and dry her completely to put iodine on. LEAVING HER DRY. She still had water to drink, and absorbed water in her daily baths.

The bacteria you are fighting thrives on humidity!!

While many owners may not be able to say their turtles recovered from a shell rot infection, I can guarantee to you that mine did, beautifully. I posted some pictures of her scars before.

PLease, please, don't just go by Internet advice to care for your "beauties." YOU MUST consult a specialist! Too many owners avoid doing so, and lose their animals in slow deaths.

Wanda

I do not have any experience with Bauris, nor do I think that it is advisable to dispense veterinary advice over the internet. Even if I were a vet, it would not be appropriate or ethical without examining the animal.
No one on this forum is in a position to make an accurate diagnosis of whatever ails your turtles, so there are limits to the quality of advice that can be given.
That having been said, a couple of people who have some training and experience as vet techs have given you valuable advice on hygiene related issues. Follow it. Make an appointment with a herp vet ASAP. If you have trouble locating one, some of us may be able to help you locate one.
In the meantime, to refresh your memory about the merits and potential dangers of using Betadyne, the link below should prove useful.
Link

I'll look up some stuff, but I repeat my vet's, reptilian specialist, Connecticut Dr. Gidding's words.

I think I read somewhere too, of the connection of low vit a/d to liver disease, manifesting in soft shell, and shell rot infections. Because their immune system weakens, making them more vulnerable to bacterial attack. Since Dr. Giddings gave me the word, I didn't pay much attention because that was what I learned before.

Wanda

OK, here we go...
http://www.boxturtlesite.info/heal.html quotes that other dieseases of the blood, or bone, can lead to shell rot.

http://www.maturtlerescue.org/signs_of_illness.htm also mentions kidney, and/or liver disease

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00339.htm Turtle/chelonian medicine, mentions infections brought on by weak immune systems

...and on and on. To me, the words of someone who took the extra credits to specialize in reptiles and birds is pretty good. Dr. Giddings is also the best specialist in the state, so much that even after decades of working, he retired but still has to come to the clinic part-time, because people just adore his exact diagnosis and treatments, and won't let him go just that easy...

PLEASE, PLEASE, consult a specialist!!! There may be much more happening to those animals! The infection may go farther than poor husbandry practices, too much humidity or a mere skin condition! Those animals will be unconfortable, in pain or itchy, and it may extend until they die their slow deaths. PLEASE see a vet.

Thanks for providing the URLs. I've read the information on both before but it was nice to refresh my memory.

For some reason I can't access the Massachusetts site at the moment, but the other two sites you mentioned state that shell rot, or SCUD, is caused by bacterial or fungal infection. I didn't see any mention (on either site) stating that it can result from vitamin A deficiency specifically.

Thanks again.

The vet diagnosed a possible liver condition caused by vit a deficiency. He gave her vit a/d shots, and calcium to help her build up the shell, and heal those ulcers.

See for yourself if his diagnosis and treatment weren't a bullseye. To me, that was all the proof I needed, so I am not too motivated to find more sources to prove a reptilian specialist practicing for decades.

You are very welcomed to do some searches and see if his theory was wrong, however. If indeed a vitamin a deficiency would not affect the liver, and in turn would not promote a shell rot infection.

The tortie is living proof that he was right... Most of those dark spots are sites where the ulcers ate up her shell. Her prognosis was negative. In fact, had she not started eating within a week, we were going to insert a tube down to her stomach, through her neck. She took months, but recovered completely with the shots, and an ointment the vet mixed up himself, of silvadene, and an antibiotic (Bactrin, or something like that.)

Wanda

PS: She was a baby too, barely over 1 yr old.

You obviously hold your vet in high regard and place alot of faith in him. That is very admirable. I don't doubt that he has an abundance of training and experience in his chosen field...certainly much more than you or I combined!

The fact remains that two of the three articles you referenced don't mention a vit. A deficiency as an underlying CAUSE of shell rot or SCUD, as you seemed to initially assert. You more recently stated that your vet administered vit. shots based on a diagnosis of a POSSIBLE deficiency. There's a difference.

Bacterial infections and fungal infections are typically more effectively treated and even cured with antibiotics and anti-fungal medications. Your vet successfully treated your turtle's shell rot with antibiotics and antifungal medications.
he also administered calcium and vitamins via injection perhaps as a prophylactic measure. You are satisfied with the results of this course of treatment, and your turtle's condition has improved: that's what is important.

I must confess, my interest lies more in prevention: I have found that, indeed, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
That's why I focus on providing optimum husbandry (to reduce or eliminate stressors that contribute to declines in health), and on providing an adequate diet (to eliminate the need for injections of vitamins and minerals).

For instance, by simply feeding my turtles beta-carotene and calcium rich foods, I can avoid quite a few of the problems associated with vit. A and calcium deficiencies, and I so don't depend on my vet to give my turtle's shots on a regular basis. More of a belief in 'preventive husbandry' than 'preventive medicine', if you will.

Cheers!

"The fact remains that two of the three articles you referenced don't mention a vit. A deficiency as an underlying CAUSE of shell rot or SCUD, as you seemed to initially assert. You more recently stated that your vet administered vit. shots based on a diagnosis of a POSSIBLE deficiency. There's a difference. "

Steph, this is his contact information:
Dr. Robert Giddings
Kensington Bird and Animal Hospital
977 Farmington Avenue
Kensington, CT
860-828-7736

I've dealt with this man over 15 yrs. Why don't you question his diagnosis in person, since I am not very motivated to, as I explained before. That is why I am not spending time getting information to prove the rationals behind his diagnosis, and treatment. So the links weren't direct answers for you. BUT you also did not provide information proving him wrong either...Do your own search then!

And yes, prevention is everything, but that is not the topic.. Once an animal shows the ulcers, prevention comes too late, unless she recovers and you are trying to avoid it again.

When the ulcers of shell rot manifest, call a reptilian specialist. In the interim, I was told to clean the area with a Betadine solution, apply iodine, and keep dry until the day of the appointment.

As in my case, the turtle had low vit a/d, and calcium, which affected the liver, her immunity to infections, and she broke out in ulcers. She was also swollen with edema. The vet dianosed and treated accordingly, I learned my lesson, and I am one of the few owners delighted to have overcome such an invasive disease.

As far as I am concerned, I don't have to question Dr. Giddings. If anyone does, contact him! Or best yet, FIND evidence that his diagnosis was incorrect. It is not an issue for me.

Wanda

I don't think that you understand, so let me make this quite clear: I'm not questioning your vet's diagnosis of your turtle's problem, nor am I questioning his choice of treatment for your turtle.

Scud is caused by a bacterial and or fungual infection. In some animals, they may have had an underlying bacterial infection that also attacked the liver. Scuds left untreated can advance to septicemia that can cause problems for ALL body organs because the shell rot provides opportunites for ANY bacteria to enter the body of the animal. Secondary infections are not uncommon in these cases. I'm not a vet or a vet tech, but a science teacher who has a great vet.

I would be careful of providing more vitamin A especially to hatchlings as it is easy to overdose them. Overdosing can also lead to secondary infections or death of the animal. Get a vets opinion on that one too.

My vet gave me Nolvasan which is prescription strength Chlorhadine. It cleared up the problem quickly. She prefers that to betadine. I use the chlorhexadine once a month now just as a preventative on my 3 toe.

If you get them to a vet I believe you'll be relieved at how quickly this can be cleared up plus you'll have the piece of mind that you are doing the right thing first. You'll also have the opportunity to discuss what may have caused this to prevent it in the future and provide the proper protection for the older animals. If you tell us what major city you are in, and which state, we can help you find a good herp vet.

"My vet gave me Nolvasan which is prescription strength Chlorhadine. It cleared up the problem quickly. She prefers that to betadine."

I think alot of people prefer chlorhexidine to Betadine. I know I do.
Gussler was waiting for a delivery (presumably of chlorhexidine) and wanted to know what could be done in the meantime, which was when Betadine was mentioned as something readily available to use. Hopefully the chlorhexidine has arrived by now.

Cheers!

Words of wisdom...

In *my* case, I have already posted the diagnosis, and treatment. Since only a specialist can diagnose and treat the infection, and potential underlying causes, take the animal to be checked, and treated! Don't rely on Internet advice only because you never know what could lie beneath.

A professional administered the doses she needed. I have never told anyone to go and get vit a for their turtles. Only narrated my experience, and advised to visit the vet. Let the specialist who went to vet school, and took extra courses to concentrate on birds and reptiles do his thing..

My turtle was steps from death. Three shots gave her the boost to feel better, and eat fruits, and veggies on her own. If your animal is still eating, teh shots may not be necessary. I don't know! The vet does...

But in my case, vit a/d, and calcium shots saved my animal...

::whew!::

Wanda

I had to go out of town to buy a 40g breeder tank.. couldn't find one anywhere here so that's partly what kept me away from here.
I have seen some great advice here so I have nothing to add but I wanted to show you all this photo of a map turtle, an aquatic who had bacterial SCUD.
This one's owner waited months & months & months to seek treatment from a vet. Why? Because as I urged him to see the vet he kept telling me "but he eats & seems ok"
Well of course he seemed fine because turtles won't show you symptoms through behavior until they are on death's door. You have to take action long before they get to that point.
This one's owner would not listen to me & by the time he did seek treatment it was too late, septicemia killed this poor baby turtle.

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PHRatz

Below is a photo of somebody's unwanted pet painted turtle that was dumped on the doorstep of a nature center. The one who took it in failed to properly quarrantine it (a new partime staff person who didn't know better). They simply placed the turtle in with the other turtles kept at the center. Needless by the time anyone else realized what had happened a few days later, this turtle managed to spread the beginnings of a nasty bacterial form of SCUD to the other turtles. Several of the turtles, including this one went septic. The regular naturalist at that center contacted me at the center I worked at. I examined their turtles and confiscated 6 of their aquatic turtles to keep in quarrantine at my own house. Those with no symptoms I left at the center and told the staff to keep a close eye on them. If they appeared to be showing any signs of the infection to let me know. Those turtles fared very well. The ones I took with me however were another matter. When all was said and done, in addition to the turtle that spread the disease, only 1 other from that batch ultimately survived.

This is the turtle that caused the trouble...

Same turtle AFTER 8 MONTHS of treatment. It's not easy to see the damage to the top shell due to the black coloration the healing exposed bone took on, but a rather large chunk of the carapace did rot out. The dark spot on the plastron up by that front leg, ultimately rotted off as well.

This is the other survivor, also an Eastern Painted turtle. This turtle was one I had treated a few years before for the same disease and that is likely why it was easily re-infected by the other turtle and the damage that much more extensive than the turtle who initially spread the disease.

The same turtle AFTER 8 MONTHS of treatment which goes to show just how much internal damage can really be done in a short time but can take a very long time to manifiest itself on the surface.... The plastron suffered the most damage, and pretty much all the discolored spots you see carapace & plastron rotted out a few weeks later. This turtle lost over 1/3 of it's plastron.

It took about 2 years for both the turtles to be considered fully recovered. And both had to be placed in permenant quarrantine away from other turtles.

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PHWyvern

What these creatures can endure and survive amazes me.
Thanks for posting the photos.

Wow those are great photos!
Thanks for posting them.
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PHRatz

Here is the orginal post:
4 out of 12 of my fla babies have scud what do i do / thought i had it under control what do i do until the medicine gets here is this going to cause permanant damage to their shells or health kenospher streamwalker steph f please reply

>>computer has been down i have got ahold of some betadine 10% solution how do i use it how much do i dilute it? i have been srubbing them with a soft toothbrush is this ok?
***

As you have been told by others ulcerative shell disease (or SCUD) is serious and the turtles should be seen by a vet. Shell rot causes permanent damage to the shell and can lead to body-wide infection if it isn’t controlled. Shell rot is caused by opportunistic bacteria or fungi. The key word for you is, opportunistic. Keepers must be vigilant for any lapses in husbandry that can lead to shell rot.

There are two kinds of shell rot. Bacteria cause “wet” shell rot, and fungi cause “dry” shell rot. What kind does your turtle have? Both types of shell rot can originate in dirty conditions, or improper husbandry that suppresses the immunity. Wet shell rot causes soft or loose scutes and a foul smell around the area. Dry shell rot will cause areas of the shell to look pitted, flaky and whitish as the fungi eats away at the keratin.

The process to treat shell rot is a long one. A vet will initially remove loose shell and dead tissue and clean all areas of shell rot. It takes many weeks of intensive care to remove all the bacteria or fungi from the shell. The vet may prescribe antibiotics or antifungal cream depending on the type of infection. A treatment containing 1 % silver sulphadiazine has been used successfully as an aid in healing shell rot, but it does not cure it.

The vet may ask you to do the follow-up work. This involves inspecting the shell for new signs of shell rot, removing any pieces of loose shell or necrotic tissue, cleaning the area with chorhexadine, and applying either antifungal cream or antibiotic ointment.

I like to keep sick or contagious turtles in a hospital tank to keep the wounds clean. With SCUD cleanliness is important. Be sure the hospital tank has a heat lamp and a full spectrum UVB light bulb. Turtles with SCUD should have a period of time after active treatment where they remain dry. But they can return to somewhat mosit conditions after as few hours. Even aquatics have been sucessfully treated for SCUD. And naturally you'll want to provide highly nutritious foods during their recovery. Good luck!
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Tess
Kingsnake.com Forum Host

Thanks for the insightful post!