Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I had decided it was serious dry eye but then slight gular edema developed. I knew it could not be from Hypervitaminosis since I have not been dusting for a while. (history is in other threads). To me his hind legs looked a bit "full," too. I spoke with vet then decided to bring him in to see if there was any infection causing swelling. He thoroughly checked his mouth, said legs were OK but short of doing an MRI to see if there is anything going on behind the eye. They send blood work out to Tufts in Boston so decided to put him on mild anti-biotic. He is on Amikacin for 3 doses. one yesterday and I will do two more next week.

I did find Cyrus this morning searching for food (first in several days), put in a big silkworm and he snatched it. So I don't know if he is feeling better, but I am! lol! He did warn me to keep him really well hydrated while on anti-b.

So that's that.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270083161383
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Lele,
I'm sorry you are having so much trouble figuring out what's wrong wit Cyrus. I hope Tufts can tell you something useful... Both of you will be in my thoughts.
Good Luck,
~Chrissy
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1.1 Crested Gecko (Anton/Angelina & Harley)
1.1 Crazy dogs (Alex & Sadie)
0.2 Vacationing Kitties (Puddy, PeeWee)
0.1 Amazing Wife =o)
Charlie - RIP 9-8-05 (Veiled Cham)

I'm glad he is eating better, but it is weird the eye thing edema/ hope he will get well, the medicine helps ! You can't relax while they have anything like this, drives ya batty!
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

his is in a constant state of "gray." I am really getting worried. He only ate that one silkie and hasn't eaten since. This s*cks
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hey lele, this really stinks!

Have ya asked any of the large breeders if they have ever dealt with anything like this?
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

I just posted a history to the CCIC forum and will do the same the "other" cham forum. The last time I saw "off" color was the day that Luna died

He comes out of his cage to hang out on his branch but rarely climbs around his gym anymore. he used to LOVE to scoot all day! I would have to get him back in to make sure he got some time under the humidifier. Here's a link to his gray-ness
Link

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

You just gave him an antibiotic correct? Sometimes they upset stomachs and make the animal feel off. It might pass quickly.

Hi Carlton been a while...

I did wonder if the color had anything to do with the antibiotic so I looked back thru pics (good thing I am such a shutter bug!). he got his first injection last Friday and I have pics from the day before and you can see the beginning of the gray.

I was looking at his skin very closely and I am now thinking that it may be the beginning of a shed - duh - I will surely feel stupid if that is what it is (but also grateful!). I noticed this very thin white vertical line running down his side and, as I smacked my forehead, thought "shed?" He has never gotten gray like this before a shed but this might be the one that shows off those bright blues of his grand-daddies!

His inactivity may be from the antibiotic. I gave it to him last night (made him bleed - felt terrible) and he'll get another on Thursday. He was acting sort of listless last week though, too. I am REALLY trying not to micro-manage and if it weren't for his eye issue I probably would not be giving anything a second thought since he has always been so healthy and active.

thanks,
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I'm so sorry to hear you continue to have issues with Cyrus' eye. Despite my best efforts, I ended up losing all my panthers in California due to eye infections. I think it had to do with the dry weather, not entirely sure. Same thing happened here in Phoenix, so I'm starting to think it's related to dryness.
I will not be getting any chameleons any time soon. Least not til I look into that more.
Just out of curiosity, have you been misting him a LOT? Seems misting a LOT always helped with my panthers.
BTW- I responded to your last e-mail, but you didn't! I know you're busy though.
Best regards;
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

I know you did - I have it hi-lighted in bright red so I don't forget to reply!!!

The weird thing is that there does not seem to be an infection. The vet has done everything but put him under and look (neither of us feel that is necessary at this point). Did you go the route of Vit A deficiency with yours? I tired the dosing recommended by Ferguson (emailed him about it) and so no difference.

Right now he is sitting in his humidifier mist. I mist often (being right here makes it easy) and I have plastic on the front now, too when he is getting his "steam." i AM LOOKING INTO A WARM MIST HUMIDIFIER (oops!). I figure I am obsessive enough about cleaning and using bottled water that I shouldn't have any trouble with bacteria, etc (people always say that is the risk in using a warm mist). The cool mist just doesn't remain long so I keep the plastic up for a while after I turn it off.

Just like Luna he will sit under his dripper and drink until content.

Will write soon!!!!
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I never had the 'normal' issue with chameleons until I left San Diego.
In San Diego I rarely if ever dusted my prey items. I relied heavily on good gut loads and a wide variety of prey items for vitamins. I kept them outside along my bonsai trees for 10 months out of the year, giving them LOTS of natural, unfiltered sunlight. I would mist them (along with my bonsai trees) constantly. Minimum of three times a day for 15 mins per misting. The constant watering and presence of trees meant that they always had high humidity.
It wasn't until I moved that I started having issues. First to Riverside, CA, then Phoenix, AZ. The high summer tempuratures and cold winters meant that my chameleons were not getting as much humidity and natural sunlight as before.
I'm convinced now more than ever that it was this combination of low humidity, lack of natural sunlight, and artificial supplementation that led to the eye issues that I was experiencing with my chameleons.
I would suggest raising the humidity. Utilize aquariums, houseplants, waterfalls, etc outside of the cage in an attempt to raise the ambient humidity. Inside the cage, you can also utilize some water crystal encased in cloth sacks (I dunno, like in some pantyhose?).
Give plenty warm water showers, too!
Good luck, and keep us posted!
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

on this board! I love your idea of water crystals! I don't wear stockings too often (advantage of working at home! lol! But may have a pair. I do have a lot of muslin tea bags in a selection of sizes. Where is the cheapest place to order quantity?

I remember when you first moved to AZ and the problems you had with your chams and eventually losing them WI am lucky to have a dozen or two days where I can put Darwin and Cyrus outside. Darwin is out more b/c I put him on a leash and he does my "caterpillar" rounds which can take a couple hours at peak season. Poor Cyrus gets put in a smaller cage (not small, just smallER) but once he gets a good basking spot he is usually fine for awhile.

As for raising indoor humidity - it's tough. Being in a wood house the air dries out fast in the winter. His actual hydration is OK. I cover his cage at night to hold in moisture from plants (he's got three in there) but he is always thirsty in a.m. He will bask and then look for a dripper. He doesn't love showers like Luna did, but he will tolerate them for about 10 or 15 minutes. Sometimes I just run hot water into the tub and let the warm steam rise, then he doesn't have to worry about getting hit with water by walking onto the wrong branch! :-O But mom is always there to rescue him
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Anyone get back to you yet with any thoughts?
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

just to not micro-manage. I really have been good about not obsessing about him (obvious from minimal posting - about him - in the year I've had him due to his fine health and me not worrying if he didn't eat for a day or two).

I was fine with just the bad dry eye (after trying everything) until the edema set in. I have one last injection to pick up and give to him tomorrow. If things continue we'll do the blood work and vet will decide which tests are most important depending on how much blood he gets, but we are holding off on that for now. After the last anti-bio I will just keep an "eye" on him and keep him well-hydrated.

On another note, I think Darwin has just realized his manhood!! He has been puffing out his beard (not far, but more than ever before) off and on today and puffing his body out, too - is he flirting with me?? :-O

His on/off brumating has been nice - one less guy to worry about. He'd sleep for up to 4 days at a time and not eating much. The blotchies are active and am trying to keep them fed. Have LOTS of baby roaches but they burrow and the blotchies are more opportunistic than hunters. Waiting for some spider sacs to hatch! They LOVE spiders and won't eat crickets (making food choice tough). I am going to limit there food into the breeding season, I don't want Ana's back to back clutches again!

thanks for caring
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi Lele,
When you said you'll be doing bloodwork, does that mean you
haven't had any done yet? I would be interested to see
what the uric acid levels arekidney function.
If his renal system is the culprit, the antibiotics could be doing more harm than good, especially when you're dealing with edema. I know you are diligent about keeping him hydrated , but there is no such thing as giving a chameleon too much water! (aside from bacteria and fungus that can develop if not kept clean.) If you don't have one already, I would get an automated misting system and let that thing blast his cage for about 3 or 4 hours daily until I saw some improvement....the humidifiers do ok for overall humidity, but don't give the good "drops" of water for him to flush his eyes and drink drink drink!
just my 2 cents for what it's worth
Keep us posted!

Right. We are doing it tomorrow and hoping he gets enough to do a full panel ($$$!). We also opted not to give today's anti-bio as he shows no change and, as you said, may be doing more harm than good. Probably should have gotten the blood work done before, but again, it was not until the edema that I was too concerned.

Will hopefully have results Monday or Tuesday and will let you know how it all turns out. Even if all is OK, we will at least have a baseline for future ref.

thanks,
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

re: mist system. I am the mist system. I work from home and he is 4' away from me. He gets misted several times/day. I also mist right before putting the humidifier which in combo keeps the foliage wetter longer. He is a good drinker. He will sit under his dripper. I just gave him a shower a while ago and hand water him so he gets the bottled water instead of our well water (see my reply to Diane below)

I have heard such disaster stories about misters and really cannot afford those expensive ones. I do use Darwin's "Misty Mate" that Kris Waters turned us all onto last year. Darwin loves it in the bath and I use it for Cyrus, too. I should probably get him his own

here is a link (they have many more on their main page) and they do not show the one I got for $9.99 at Walgreens
misty mate

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Lele: Thought this might be of interest to you regarding Cyrus' edema. I know you read extensively but...things are sometimes buried. Hope Cyrus is better soon,
Diane
Hydration sources

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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon

Thanks Diane, I had seen that article a long time ago but it was a good refresher. He is definitely hydrated, that is not a problem. He has not been snorting out salts, but who knows. I use bottled water from two sources and may get them checked but it will have to wait until I pay off the bloodwork vet bill

We have a 20' dug well so groundwater can be an issue, but we live on a pristine river, conservation land and no local farm/fert/ etc. run-off. But even with that, everyone gets bottled water. I really with there were some standards set for bottled water as you never REALLY know without testing and depending on where the bottler is getting it from (maybe several sources) even that can change. So much we don't know! I am going to do a pH test on it with my aquarium test stuff (never thought to do that before - duh!)

Thanks,
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Refresh my memory...when did the edema start....was it there before you gave him the extra vitamin A or after?

after - I gave him Vit A in mid-Dec. and noticed the edema in late January. He is getting blood drawn today. Do you know if they can tell vitamin levels in blood or does that have to come from tissue sample?

thx
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

That's what I afraid would happen by giving him the extra vitamin A.

The blood for humans can give the levels of vitamins so I would expect that would hold true for chameleons. The only time vitamin A levels were mentioned concerning my chameleons was in autopsy reports and I don't know how they determined that.

I'm moving this up the page lele....its getting far enough down that I forget to check it.