Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,

Below is a message I posted on another forum a few months back as a response/further question regarding the potential benefits from feeding lizards as a supplement to Pyro's, Zonata, Alterna, etc. Since that forum isn't getting much traffic I thought I would paste it and post it over here to get some feedback:

Hi,
Although I'm interested in this topic as well, I do not have much to contribute. In a converation with Troy Hibbitts recently, we touched on this subject, and he mentioned that Dan Johnson and some other folks had tremendous reproductive success and high fertility rates in L. alterna when feeding their snakes a nearly 100% lizard diet. I don't know if Troy participates in these forums or not, but if so, perhaps he can elaborate a bit more. A couple of questions I would like to raise is: Does anyone knows if there has been an analysis of nutritional values involving or comparing domestic rodents and wild lizards? Given that lizards make up the bulk of the diet in wild Mtn. kings, could it be possible that one or more of the nutritional requirements of captive pyro's is not being completely fulfilled by a 100% domestic rodent diet? Obviously, if there is a deficiency, it is not hampering the overall health of captive mtn. kings fed strictly rodents. However, it would be interesting to know if there is a direct correlation between increased fertility and overall reproductive success in captive pyro's, zonata, and alterna when fed a lizard diet.
I'm not too surprised to hear about snakes accepting lizards in the fall after having stopped feeding on rodents. Afterall, it is probably lizards that they really want. Consider all the effort that goes into coaxing some neonates to take rodents right off the bat. I would be interested in hearing any info that you gain on this topic in the future.
Thanks,
Roberto

Roberto,

Post this in the Gray-Banded Kingnakes forum. This topic was discussed there a while back (a search there could pull up the thread), Joe Forks, Dan Johnson and the gang provided a very informative discussion and I'm sure they could answer most of your questions.
-----
Mike

Mike,

Thanks for pointing out the thread in the gray-band forum. There are some good points brought up in that thread worthy of consideration.

Adios,
Roberto

I suppose it MIGHT BE possible, but this would take MANY years with many snakes in a strictly controlled environment to prove, or this could be interpreted as only a few good "productive" years for whatever reasons....... Also(as you probably well know), unless the lizards are frozen, can harbor many parasites harmful to snakes..........only time will tell.....................................................Doug
-----
Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

I don't remember when but there was a post on this forum where someone put up a scanned page of a reasearch study where they did a complete nutritional analysis of all of the small prey items that are commonly fed to captive carnivores.

Nutritional analysis just means that they are using lab equipment to determine the percent and type of protiens, fats, carbs, vitamins, minerals, ash, etc. If I remember corectly, the lizard and an ADULT mouse were very similar with the only major difference being a higher fat content in the mouse.

These types of analysis do have their limitations though. Not all animals digest and absorb food in the same ways. Just because the nutrient is present in the food does not always mean that the animal recieves it. I would think that a higher fat diet might be a good thing for a breeding female, but maybe not. If their digestive systems aren't designed for it maybe the fat has an adverse affect. It would be interesting to here from anyone who has disected some kingsnakes and compare the relative size of the galbladder in lets say a mountain king and an eastern king.

The liver prodces bile which is how all animals digest fat. The galbladder is where this bile is stored until needed. Animals with very small (or sometimes none) galbladders usually can not tolerate high fat diets without digestive upset.

I don't know if a specific controlled study has ever been done with the lizard eating kings you mention. But if you find anything on the other forums please repost it here cuz I would love to know more.

cheers

Are you referring to this?

www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf
-----
Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
2.4.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Hypo Everglades Rat Snakes
2.1.0 Baird's Rat Snakes
1.2.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snakes
1.1.0 Trinket Rat Snake
1.0.0 Japanese Rat Snake
1.1.0 Salt and Pepper Bull Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Het Amel San Diego Gopher Snake
0.1.0 San Diego Gopher Snake
3.2.0 Sonoran Gopher Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
2.1.0 Gray Banded Kingsnakes (1.1 River Road, 1.0 Non-Locale Specific)
1.0.0 Hypermelanistic California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Albino High White California Kingsnake
0.2.0 California Kingsnakes
0.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
0.1.0 Florida Kingsnake
1.1.0 Boa Constrictors
0.1.0 Dumeril's Boa
2.0.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
1.1.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Woma Python
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.1.0 Macklot's Pythons
1.1.0 Western Hognoses
1.1.0 Malagasy Giant Hognoses
1.0.0 Blacktail Cribo

LIZARDS
1.0.0 Frilled Dragon
3.1.0 Bearded Dragons (2 Normal, 1 RedXGold, 1 Citrus)
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
1.0.0 African Fat-Tail Gecko
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
0.1.0 Banded Gecko

FROGS
2.2.0 Southern Bell Frogs
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
1.1.1 White's Tree Frogs
0.0.2 Gold Frogs

Thanks for posting that.

I don't know if that was the same one that was posted a while back or not. Its a little frustrating that the fat content of lizards is not shown.

...I found that a bit annoying as well, but it's the best one I've seen. Someone else originally posted it here a while back.
-----
Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
2.4.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Hypo Everglades Rat Snakes
2.1.0 Baird's Rat Snakes
1.2.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snakes
1.1.0 Trinket Rat Snake
1.0.0 Japanese Rat Snake
1.1.0 Salt and Pepper Bull Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Het Amel San Diego Gopher Snake
0.1.0 San Diego Gopher Snake
3.2.0 Sonoran Gopher Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
2.1.0 Gray Banded Kingsnakes (1.1 River Road, 1.0 Non-Locale Specific)
1.0.0 Hypermelanistic California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Albino High White California Kingsnake
0.2.0 California Kingsnakes
0.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
0.1.0 Florida Kingsnake
1.1.0 Boa Constrictors
0.1.0 Dumeril's Boa
2.0.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
1.1.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Woma Python
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.1.0 Macklot's Pythons
1.1.0 Western Hognoses
1.1.0 Malagasy Giant Hognoses
1.0.0 Blacktail Cribo

LIZARDS
1.0.0 Frilled Dragon
3.1.0 Bearded Dragons (2 Normal, 1 RedXGold, 1 Citrus)
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
1.0.0 African Fat-Tail Gecko
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
0.1.0 Banded Gecko

FROGS
2.2.0 Southern Bell Frogs
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
1.1.1 White's Tree Frogs
0.0.2 Gold Frogs

Zach,

As Mike (aka mexicanamak) pointed out above there is a fairly lengthy disscussion regarding this subject in the Gray-band Forum. From what I saw the subject was discussed in three separate threads(I will list the post that started each thread):

9/11/2006
"Alterna egg hatch success"-gmerker

9/15/2006
"Lizard issue..."-chrish

9/19/2005
"Feeders..."-troy h

If you have the time you should check it out. There are some good points and questions raised.

Roberto

hey man
that first one was a very interesting thread. I couldnt find the second two. could you maybe post the link?

cheers

Zach,

Here you go:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1161660,1161660

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1164450,1164450