Reptile & Amphibian Forums

No, I'm not asking if I can raise my babies on sand. But, I am asking a couple questions about it..

I'm starting a couple cage decoration projects. I'm making some fake rocks, hides and dishes and such for some of my cages out of styrofoam covered in cement. Gonna make some stuff for reptile cages, and a divider/land area for my aquarium (which will then house newts). I'm gonna set some stuff up for the leopards as well, and I've run into a roadblock.

I've talked to a couple people who use slate & similarly flat stones in their leopard cages. They all say they put sand in between the rocks, so that the critters can't get wedged down under them, and so that feeders don't disapear into cracks where the leos can't get to them. I was thinking about coating some flat sheets of styrofoam with cement to make it look like big pieces of flat slate, but it would be lighter, and I'd be able to make square pieces to fit into corners of the cage better.
If I do this, is it safe enough to fill in just the cracks between pieces with sand? I know calci-sand is generally frowned upon, but for using this little bit, would it work better than other sands?

And as a side note-
Why should leopards have calcium WITHOUT d3? I see this urged everywhere, but never a reason for it. Just a purely academic question. What's in the d3 that's bad for them?

Well I guess you already know sand is bad. Me personally I wouldnt risk it, but if you absolutlly must use sand and there is no talking you out of it, the playsand from lowes is much safer than the calci sand. As far as the D3 question, Im not 100% on this but im sure someone that is, will either correct me or let me and you both know im right. I think its because leos do not use full spectrum uvb lighting and you need uvb lighting to make the d3 work. On the sand, would paper towels in the bottom not serve as well? I mean if your making it from styrophome i would think it would be much much easier to clean with out sand in the tank. Wow i would hate to have to take out all those fake rocks and vacumme out the sand just because a few crix did get lodged somwere and die...just consider your opptions.

The problem I'd have (other than the sand, which, like the other poster, I wouldn't risk) is that styrofoam is an insulator - how's the heat from the UTH going to make it through to actually warm the geckos' bellies?
-----
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

I have thought about that. I'm talking about using 1/4" or less of styrofoam. It'd really just be enough to stick the cement to.
But, I was figuring if I do that, I'll have to use overhead heat. A CHE or a black/red light bulb. Not too much of an issue for me. A red light bulb would be kind of nice, because I'd be able to see them better at night when they're active.

Sorry to post again, this time I'll adress your D3 question. And I apologize again for this could be another long one.
This subject was brought up on the forum earlier this week & the people who were against didn't point out any evidence or sorces for this information. So being open minded & worried about the welfare of my own geckos I took it apon myself to find out the pros & cons of D3 in a Leopard Geckos diet.
What I found was D3 is needed for the gecko to be able to absorb & utilize calcium. As opposed to basking lizards that require UVB exposure such as iguanas as an example, the UVB radiation helps them manufacture there own D3 in order to absorb & utilize calcium. Leopard Geckos being nocturnal and the use of UVB exposure (though a good idea) has not been proven to benefit leos, dietary supplementation is a way for Leos to get there requirements of D3.
Now the downside is, D3 is a fat soluable vitamin so it can accumulate in the body if not used with discretion. I'm still looking for the affects on this. Any input or good sorces for this information would be appreciated.
For a side note, another form of vitamin D is D2. There is evidence that reptiles cannot utilize D2, so be cautious when you get a product that says "Contains Vit.D", that it's D3 and not D2.
The two sorces I extracted this information from are "The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos" & "The Bearded Dragon Manual"
Again any other information & resorces pro or con would be appreciated, as for I'm still researching and haven't come to a conclusive opinion.
Thanks

Personally I would caution against useing cement based products for any animal reasons outside the knowledge of herpetology. As a Cement Mason by trade we are constantly being preached the dangers of cement dust & other properties in cement that can cause chemical burns that are harmful to humans. Why wouldn't the same apply to animals.
For one, cement contains silica sand. Which when inhaled the silica particals adhere to the lung tissue and can't be expelled, causing silacosis. Which is similar to mesophelioma, a debilitating lung condition caused by aspestos. There should be a warning lable on the bag of cement.
Another point would be that cement on it's own is pretty week. It needs the strength of aggragates such as rock or sand to be strong, that would make it concrete.
With your idea what I would be worried about is over time the cement cracking & flaking off the styrafoam and then being ingested by the gecko. My other concern would be the gecko climbing & scatching the decoration causing small amounts of silica dust & inhailing it.
Your idea sounds good for making a nice decor, but I would consider useing an epoxy resin product instead of cement. Epoxies are more expensive but are strong, longer lasting, and dust free once they cure out. There are actually some pretty cool things you can do with Epoxy.
Sorry the post is so long, I have alot of input for you on this subject.

Don't apologize for it being long! I'm thrilled to get input on this topic! I've been looking for info. It's great to talk to someone who has experience with cement.

I know that uncured cement is a problem, but I've never heard anything about cured, dry, hard cement being an issue. I was following instructions from aquarium people on how to make aquarium decorations. A ton of cichlid people have been doing it for years.
It's been going on since the 1950s, when the big aquariums (as in.. Aquarium.. where you pay to go see fish..) started making entire enclosures out of cement, with having only glass fronts. A lot of zoos do the same thing, too, for tons of their animals.
I've seen the Pittsburgh Aquarium & L'Aquàrium in Barcelona, where both have huge tanks with cement in them.
And most of the "live rock" you buy for reef aquariums is really cement (or rather, concrete, i guess, because it's cement mixed with crushed shells, and then rolled in a mixture of crushed shells & sand, to make it rough & full of holes for bacteria & algae to grow in).

Some of the stories I've read about people using cement say that they've coated everything in an epoxy resin, but they all say that it works just as good if you don't, and that after the first time they used epoxy resin, they didn't use it for any subsequent projects.

For the burns- All of the aquarium sites say the same thing. Cement put into an aquarium raises the pH up HIGH. Sometimes up to 11. But if you keep changing the water ever 2-3 days, it cures, and the pH drops back to normal. Depending on the amount of cement used, it can be cured in as little as 17 days, or take as long as 8 weeks. Would this not take care of the burn issue?

And for the flaking issue, I think I might know about that-
What I've read about using cement has always been in aquariums. Some chemistry people have also said that in water, cement cures & strengthens indefinitely. Something about the chemical makeup that I won't pretend to understand (it was a list of letters, numbers, plus signs, and arrows a mile long) makes it stronger the longer you keep it in water. Maybe this is why it works so well in aquariums? Know anything about that?
The only stuff I've read about using it in vivariums called for it being coated in latex paint. That made it a smoother finish, and easier to clean. Not really sure why you'd use cement there at all, and not just cover the styrofoam with paint.

And thanks for the response on the calcium, too. I had heard a mix of any d3 calcium and crushed egg shells is a good one to use. Might try some of that.

thanks again! It's great to have hands-on experience and input.

I'm impressed to see you have done some reserch. I didn't go into great detail about the cement burns because that's mainly relavent when the cement is wet when it's being mixed & applied.
It's the lime in the cement that causes the chemical burns and would also raise the PH in water. That's why African Cichlids from lakes Tanganika & Malawi would be fine if not thrive in the higher PH since those two lakes have a natural PH of 8.5 to 9.2 or higher. I actually know alot about Africa Cichlids too. I would imagine the same would apply to salt water as well that the PH would naturally be high due to the mineral content in the water. I really only know the slim basics about salt water.
I'd also think the public aquariums might coat there concrete with a sealer that would help prevent the lime from leaching out and affecting the PH. I've looked into doing concrete ponds and part of my plan was to seal it.
As for use with reptiles, I was mainly concerned about the silica dust & possible ingestion of small pieces.
I'm glad you liked the information, good luck with your project. Show some pics of you final product when your done.

Awesome redmoon, i would advise as well to stay away from the sand. It is the worst for a leo. Imapction, irritation and so on will occur. Some prefer clay, which is a bit hard to clean. I use and prefer papertowels. Easy and cheap. Pure calcuim dish should be in the tank. Right with no D3. Too much D3 is not good for a leo!

Research is my thing. I'm not about to kill my animals by acting foolhardy and jumping into something I don't understand. I know this is rare, but it's me. Seems like you feel the same way there that I do, where you like to see the scientific fact to back up opinion (I'm referring to the d3 issue here, where neither of us want to hear, "don't do it", but want to hear "dont do it because...".

So, the pH thing isn't a mystery. But, would it not lower eventually? Would it really leech out forever?

This site is really reading intense, but it's one of the better ones I've found for using cement. It has some first hand experiences with cement in aquaria, and some of the chemistry behind things. http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/t_miller_052498.html He talks about some of the curing & everything involved, and that's another of the sites that says about it curing indefinitely & becoming stronger in water.

Here's another that says about a specific aquarium-safe cement.
http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/concrete.html
I don't know where I'd be able to find Thorite, but I am looking into it. They say in there that Thorite works, but on Thoroseal's website, there's a mention of mixing something else into Thorite in high-moisture areas.

The big item in question, now that you've pointed out about cichlids liking high pH is this- absolutely everything says, "pH will return to normal in ___ days." None of them say what normal is. It could be quite possible that normal does mean high.

And finally, my intentions for the cement have been primarily for aquarium use. I was wanting to combine the cement with other things (chunks of slate, other stones and all that), and make some naturalistic setings for in my aquarium. Make a wall of rock caves on one end and all that. Silicone won't quite work as well for what I'm thinking, because I want big rocks. So, the whole reptile thing is a byproduct- if I bought cement & used it in the aquarium, I'd have stuff left over. Figured I might as well use it for other cages.

I'm thinking I might test this out. I could get a bag of cement for $3. It wouldn't be the exact stuff I'm going to use, but it would at least give me an idea of what the final pH would be, after curing. I could mix together a chunk, and dispose of the rest- it'd still be a cheap enough experiment. Or, I could probably hit up the local Vocational Technical school, and see if I could just have a cup of the dry cement.

Thank you so much for the information here, I really do appreciate it. If this starts to get lost, and we're still sharing information, feel free to hit me up with an e-mail. I'd rather not blare it through here, where random searches can find it, but send me a PM or e-mail through the site & we could go from there.