Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Saturday we went to another town to buy the 40g breeder tank for the yellow mud turtle.
We went to a store that sells exotic animals but not dogs or cats.
I was very impressed with this store, actually I was surprised to be impressed because I am not used to seeing a good pet store. Compared to what we have to choose from here, it was really a fantastic place.
It didn't stink, when I walk in the door of a pet store & it stinks I am not happy right off the bat. The herps I saw were all very healthy looking, all the animals I saw were healthy looking. I bought myself 4 newly weaned baby dumbo rats who so far are the healthiest I've ever had! They also did not stink.. you can tell when they come from a dirty cage because they will stink.
I didn't get to go in the back room where they keep them.. someone brought them to me so smelling them was the only way I could tell what kind of conditions they were kept in.
No stinking from anywhere is always a good sign of a clean store.
Anyway.. the 4" law
I noticed a tank full of aquatic hatchlings & they were for sale. Stuck to the glass was a license number.. so apparently I don't understand my own state's laws on some of this legal wrangling. I've been in pet stores in Austin TX where they put up notices that they will not sell a turtle under 4" at all. This store does, so I wonder if they breed them themselves.. is that a loophole for the 4" law?
I gathered though from the info on the tank I saw Sat. that they are legally able to sell babies. They've been in business for several years so if they were breaking the law I'm sure they would've been shut down by now. I hate that 4" law it's too confusing!

Another thing I noticed were a few gorgeous young ornate box turtles, not hatchlings but young. They were very pretty & very high priced IMO for a box. They were CB & frankly I think putting a high price on them is a good idea.. that way only serious keepers would shell out the bucks for them, giving them a better chance at a good home.

No I didn't buy more turtles, I got groans enough from the hubby who realized I wasn't leaving without the baby rats LOL!!
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PHRatz

The 4" rule is difficult to enforce because of some of the exceptions, but I don't see any mention of it being possible to obtain a license to sell turtles less than 4" in length AS PETS...

Do you remember what that license said?
Link

>>The 4" rule is difficult to enforce because of some of the exceptions, but I don't see any mention of it being possible to obtain a license to sell turtles less than 4" in length AS PETS...
>>
>>Do you remember what that license said?
>>Link

The 4" law is a federal law. State law can be more restrictive than federal laws, but cannot decide to be more lax than the fed law...therefore when it comes to the 4" law, the federal takes precedence. Now, the law itself actually does allow for the sale of undersized turtles BUT only for educational purposes. The keeping of such turtles as pets DOES NOT count as educational purposes. Bonafide educational facilities such as schools, nature centers, zoos, laboratories, etc. can buy undersized turtles. Some joe-shmoe off the street buying a baby turtle for his kid to raise up as a learning experience does NOT meet the requirements.
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PHWyvern

I live in New York, and if you go to China Town, in most of the grocery stores you can find a bunch of baby sliders in a bucket. They even stand outside and sell them. It is awful to see. In these stores, you can also buy bull frogs. They keep them in big water barrels. If you just want the legs, which most people do, they just pull one out, take it in the back, and then bring out the legs in a minute or two.
Very sad to me, as I love sliders, and have always raised them from hatchlings, and they are so precious to me. And as for the bull frogs....well I have a load of them in my pond. Sometimes I throw crickets at them, and they jump up and catch them. I guess everyone is different.
Terry

Not be technical, but it is a FDA regulation, not a law.

If you look here
http://google2.fda.gov/search?client=FDA&output=xml_no_dtd&oe=&lr=&proxystylesheet=FDA&getfields=*&q=turtles&site=

You can see all sorts of amendments, sample warning letters
etc….. Its good to know they don’t just race in and destroy
the poor turtles as the regulation seems to imply.

As for educational purposes, the regulation is not clear what is
meant by “bona fide” scientific, educational, or exhibitional
purposes … I looked and looked and couldn’t find “their”
definition. That is most likely why these places can sell them,
they could argue they were sold for these purposes etc..

Again, isn’t it sad, this regulation was not meant to protect
the turtles, but to help prevent Salmonella. Ever heard of washing your hands? I would rather see regulations for the
cruel way most pet shops keep their turtles in, than what size
they are. Just sad.
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

They almost always have baby turtles at the
reptile shows we have here.

I think the 4 Inch rule is the most illogical
response to a problem. Kids can still get
salmonella from other reptiles and larger
turtles.

What they should have done is restricted HOW the
baby sliders were sold, not completely prohibit
their sale. They were being sold in dime stores,
drug stores, all over the place.

I know I had one once and I don't know what happened
to it (I was pretty young). I do have a strange memory
of my mom saying "salmonella" in an ominous voice. She
probably found out about the salmonella risk and got
rid of it.

But they could have limited their sale to pet stores or
reptile shows, limited the number that could be sold and
limited their sale to adults, with a mandatory care sheet
hand out.

People get e. coli or salmonella from improper handling of meat and chicken and they don't ban that.....its ridiculous.

I have to agree with you Lisa.
It is just asinine to have a regulation like this.
All and any of the things you suggested would have been
a much better way. Bureaucracy at its worst
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

it wasn't just salmonella that brought rise to the regulation, children were also putting the turtles in their mouths creating a choking hazard, obviously thats not the place for a turtle and shows how neglegent their parents were, honestly I'd much rather having the 4" law in place than have the feds or whoever come up with something even more restrictive as they seem to like to do to the herp community.

and as far as I am aware the only loop hole that allows sale other than for the purposes states in the other posts is private sale, from someone not advertise or running a business to some average joe I could be wrong though it has been some time since I read the thing.

>>As for educational purposes, the regulation is not clear what is
>> meant by “bona fide” scientific, educational, or exhibitional
>>purposes … I looked and looked and couldn’t find “their”
>>definition. That is most likely why these places can sell them,
>> they could argue they were sold for these purposes etc..
>>

Most state regulations is where you will find the definitions on what constitutes bona fide educational use/facility. Feds typically leave it to the state to make the definitions like that.

Typically what a pet store will do is have a person sign an affidavit stating that the turtle is being purchased for bona fide educational use. That gets the store owner off the hook supposedly. It's up to the state to prove that the people buying the turtles lied. Unless of course the authorities are running an undercover sting and purchase the animals from the store in a manner which can be proven to not be legal and then bust the store owner.
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PHWyvern

..........Typically what a pet store will do is have a person sign an affidavit stating that the turtle is being purchased for bona fide educational use. That gets the store owner off the hook supposedly. It's up to the state to prove that the people buying the turtles lied. Unless of course the authorities are running an undercover sting and purchase the animals from the store in a manner which can be proven to not be legal and then bust the store owner.
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I'm sorry but the whole thing is just ridiculous to me.
Now if there were regulations to protect the turtles, I would
be all for it.

I’m not really sure about the state regulations, I did do a
search in my state and found nothing about the 4 inch
regulation, all I could find was the list of turtles it was
illegal to keep here, nothing about size.

I didn’t have to sign anything when I got my turtles.
And I would hope everyone, the Government included,
would have better things to do than try and figure out
where and why I got my turtles. Crazy
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Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!

We Survive together ~ or not at all.

>>..........Typically what a pet store will do is have a person sign an affidavit stating that the turtle is being purchased for bona fide educational use. That gets the store owner off the hook supposedly. It's up to the state to prove that the people buying the turtles lied. Unless of course the authorities are running an undercover sting and purchase the animals from the store in a manner which can be proven to not be legal and then bust the store owner.
>>-----------------------
>>
>>I'm sorry but the whole thing is just ridiculous to me.
>>Now if there were regulations to protect the turtles, I would
>>be all for it.
>>
>>I’m not really sure about the state regulations, I did do a
>>search in my state and found nothing about the 4 inch
>> regulation, all I could find was the list of turtles it was
>> illegal to keep here, nothing about size.
>>
>>I didn’t have to sign anything when I got my turtles.
>>And I would hope everyone, the Government included,
>>would have better things to do than try and figure out
>>where and why I got my turtles. Crazy
>>-----
>>Man is the only animal that blushes ~ or NEEDS to!
>>
>>We Survive together ~ or not at all.

Won't always necessarily be listed under the state laws pertaining to reptiles.. it is not uncommon to find states that regard some herps as "fish" and regulate them through the fishing industry laws.. or with some herps such as turtles through the health department laws for the state (i.e. because of the salmonella).
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PHWyvern

>>Won't always necessarily be listed under the state laws pertaining to reptiles.. it is not uncommon to find states that regard some herps as "fish" and regulate them through the fishing industry laws.. or with some herps such as turtles through the health department laws for the state (i.e. because of the salmonella).

Now that's interesting.. fish lol
I know this store in some way has to be doing this legally or else the doors wouldn't have been open as long as they have been.
This 4" thing has always been ridiculous to me because I do know how to wash my hands & I do know how to not put a turtle in my mouth.. I knew that when I was a little kid.
I remember 10-12 years ago a school group went to a zoo to see a visting Komodo dragon.. some of those kids put hay in their mouths, hay that was in the enclosure with the dragon then some kids were hospitalized with Salmonella. If I recall that story correctly these weren't 3-4 year old kids they were grammar school age, old enough they should've known better.
That wasn't a tiny turtle at the zoo.. you could get Salmonella from a horse or any other animal.
People need to learn not to put things in their mouths and use soap.
I agree with the idea if there were laws in place to protect the turtles.. I might feel differently about it all.
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PHRatz

I agree the laws weren't put in place to protect turtles. But the law does protect turtles eventhough its intention wasn't that. Many of those pet store hatchlings end up dead, or in local ponds and lakes. Red ear sliders are all over the place many came from kids who got tired of them and threw them into the wild somewhere. So in that case the law did prevent many hatchlings in woolworths, pet stores, etc. from dying in the hands of some little kid who thought they were cool. Also I know of a pet store in philly that was shut down because it was selling hatchlings, along with many other illegal things like wood turtles, wild caught boxies, etc. So the law does help turtles indirectly. However, I guess you can make a case that it hinders wild populations also. Reason being that pet stores can't use hatchlings, so they therefore use adult wild caught animals, which are cheaper for them to buy. In my opinion I would love to see a law that restricted any reptiles or amphibians from being sold in pet stores. To me if someone has a real interst in owning a reptile they should by from breeders, and not just buy a pet on a whim at a petstore. When you think of it if the law where created to help turtles it would be written that only hatchlings could be sold in pet stores. That way it would be illegal to sell wild caught adults in stores. It also would hinder poachers who deplete local populations to make some money at the local pet store.

depends on how you look at it, if it were legal to commercially sell hatchlings those poachers would be collecting the adults for their eggs then either killing or releasing the adults, there by reducing the number of hatchlings in the wild, and those that were laid in the wild and fertile would have even less of a chance of surviving to adulthood.
and the stress on the adults while they're in captivity would take a toll as well.

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check it out

>>Do you remember what that license said?

No darn it I should've written it down because I just can't remember.
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PHRatz