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Hatchling growth rates (Rouen et al.)...

RMB Feb 11, 2007 02:18 PM

Here are some comparative growth data for 2.2 hatchling Eastern Box Turtles (~24 weeks old).

This is a photo of them on November 15, 2006 (~12 weeks old):

This is a photo of them from today (February 11, 2007) (~24 weeks old) - I tried to arrange it identical to the first photo for comparison:

Here are mass data from three events (approximately one month intervals):

It's interesting to note that the largest hatchling originally (A1) is now the smallest (she eats consistently, just not as much as the others).
In the two months that I have been collecting mass data (December 5, 2006 to today), B1 has put on ~63.3% more mass; A1 ~18.8%; B2 ~61.5%; and A2 ~73.4%.

Here are individual photos with a Canadian nickel for comparison (sorry, no quarters in my pocket). The diameters of Canadian and US nickels are identical (~21.2 mm).

B1:

A1:

B2:

A2:

Hope this helps!

Kind regards,
Ryan

Replies (7)

RMB Feb 12, 2007 08:41 PM

Does anyone think that this growth is excessive? They feed every other day (a couple times a month they have two days off in between). I vary their diet as much as possible with lots of calcium and UVA/B radiation.
Ryan

casichelydia Feb 12, 2007 09:18 PM

A good way to know if your animals are getting a bit much to eat is to harass them to the point they pull into their shells and see how much, ah, poofieness, is around the legs.

RMB Feb 12, 2007 09:23 PM

The beauty is in its simplicity, seems like a good gauge to me.
Thanks!
Ryan

kensopher Feb 14, 2007 01:45 AM

Wow, Ryan, that is fantastic. I commend your diligence!

As far as "excessive" growth...as you are a keeper of colubrids and a generally knowledgeable herpetology student, I'm sure that you're aware of the debate concerning captive reptile growth. To the best of my knowledge, they've never definitively been able to pin negative consequences to excessive growth when all of the other parameters are met. Meaning, as long as the animal is healthy both in appearance and behavior, fast growth rates in and of themselves haven't proven to be a problem. I still remember when keepers and herpetologists became livid that people were raising Retics and Burms to breeding size in a year. As far as I know, they haven't linked any negative effects to this practice (aside from all of the unwanted pets).

The problem seems to arise when the fast growth is a symptom of a dietary flaw and a larger problem. I watched a local herp keeper ignore the dietary recommendations of myself and others in the care of his hatchling Three-toed box turtles. At two years of age, on a diet of earthworms and trout chow, the turtles were nearly 5 inches in length. Unfortunately, they were horribly deformed (in my opinion anyway). The whole time, he just kept saying, "But they're eating it all and growing so fast, they must be healthy." I think that this is one reason why "fast" growth has such a negative stigma. It can actually be a side effect of improper care.

Steph said something very wise a few weeks back..."...it's not the quantity of growth, it's the quality of growth." I'd say that about nails it, and it goes for "fast" or "slow" growth in my opinion. Your hatchlings are showing nice, clean, even, tight, smooth, "proportional" growth. If it seems faster than others, I wouldn't be too concerned until a red flag pops up.

In addition, my experience has shown me that some populations of box turtles grow faster than others. For whatever reason, the NJ box turtle that I used to keep grew much faster than the Southeastern US box turtles that I currently have.

In addition to chubby legs, bulging eyes can be a sign of obesity (especially in juveniles) due to the presence of a fat pad behind the eyes.

Ryan, have you added vegetation to the diet regimen at this point?

RMB Feb 15, 2007 01:11 PM

Thanks, Ken!
I offer them sweet potato, shredded carrots, cantaloupe, and other items high in carotenoids. The three that are feeding well will eat anything I put in front of them so I may start introducing a few dark, leafy greens as well.
Ryan

kensopher Feb 15, 2007 01:37 PM

You're lucky! Sometimes it can be a nightmare trying to add other items.

Bingo...kale, collards, mustard greens are my bitters of choice.

Which F generation are these? I'm just curious.

RMB Feb 15, 2007 06:56 PM

Two are F1 and the other two are F2.
Cheers,
Ryan

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