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covering Great Stuff

Redmoon Feb 14, 2007 10:53 AM

I've asked a couple questions about using cement for different things in caging, and the general consensus advises against it for a variety of reasons. The ideas I've had for using cement so far have been- fake backgrounds similar to the whole Great Stuff background, but with less organic material on it to rot, slightly more permanent. Hide boxes, water dishes, combos of the two. Faux rocks to use as basking spots(which, could also be turned into a hide). I'd also like to do some hardscaping for my cages.. Something that would look fairly similar to this type of thing, except I'd try to make it look a little more natural.

Cement has been tossed out because:
When dry, it flakes & makes a silica powder which is toxic when breathed in. You don't heat of many people dieing from this, but people who work with cement are cautioned about it because they're in close contact with it constantly- I don't think subjecting my animals to it and forcing them to be in close contact with it is right.
When wet, lime leeching out of the cement causes alkaline burns(compared to acid burns- just on the opposite spectrum. So, can't use it to make water dishes, or dividers for paludariums, like I wanted to.
Grout, a cement product, is susceptible to cracking when spread over large surfaces. It's designed to be spread between tiles. Now, I was told that if applied with a slurry coat first, then several thicker coats over it & time to cure in between coats, and then sealed with a high-quality grout sealer, it'll work. But this then becomes expensive, and very time consuming, since you have to let each layer cure for 8 hours. Turns it into a week long job of working on it a few hours every day, and it's probably going to cost $50. The cheapest grout I can find is $15 a bag, and the cheapest sealer is $15 a bag, so I'm expecting $30 just for those, add in any cement pigments used to vary colors & such, and that's starting to get pricey.

So, I'm back to square one, and thinking of using Great Stuff or a similar product. This will work, and wouldn't be too bad. Making backgrounds would be simple, and since it starts out soft & liquidy, I can even push pieces of slate into it to make ledges & such on the background, and a series of ledges could even make a waterfall. But, all of the backgrounds I've seen call for it to be covered in either sand, or coconut fiber. I hesitate to use either of these, because coconut fiber will rot, and sand would be too rough for any of my animals. So, are there any alternatives to using these covers that would be safe? I was thinking about acrylic paint, but people seem to say that it won't hold up well in a really high humidity environment. So, that cuts out the crested geckos, and it makes me hesitate before using it with the boas, since they spill their water constantly, plus the added problem of scrubbing urates & such from it. Any of those would work well enough for a background, but they limit the use of it for other decorations, like the hide boxes & such, where animals would be on top of them.

So, does anyone have any solutions to any of my cement problems? If not, do you have any solutions to the Great Stuff problem, of what kind of covering material would work well?

Replies (10)

chris_harper2 Feb 14, 2007 11:35 AM

Great Stuff is highly flamable and it not meant to be used in exposed areas for the most part. It is assumed it will be covered with some sort of fire-rated product. Be very careful with this stuff, especially if you will be use high powered heat lamps.

Quick comment(s): Not all cement contains silica and you could at the very least mix up your own blend.

Also, lime leaches out eventually. This is why you can keep fish in concrete ponds.

Regardless, I have a few thoughts, albeit not products I have tried.

1) Modeling paste. Liquitex is the most common. Basically paste mixed with granite/marble dust. A nice material but cannot be exposed to high heat and is very expensive.

2) Drylok paint tinted to the color of your choice. This is a hydraulic cement based paint that has a naturally rough texture. You might be able to mix some sort of fire retardant in the first coat and then mix in color and flattening agents in subsequent coats. The stock colors (white, blue and grey) are probably a bit glossy for faux rockwork.

3) Xypex hydraulic cement mixed into a slurry, or possibly Xypex mixed in with Drylok.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Redmoon Feb 14, 2007 12:55 PM

I didn't know Great Stuff was that flammable.. Scary that so many people use it then, eh?

Where would I find a cement that didn't contain silica? Any specific brand?
And you mentioned hydraulic cement.. I saw one specific DIY aquarium site that recommended using Quikrete Hydraulic Water Stop cement. Know what the difference would be between this and your recommended Xypex? The Quikrete is $10 for a plastic tub of it that would be more than enough for me to do everything I want.

My intuition agrees that the lime will leech out eventually, and I have pointed out that many man-made dams, reservoirs, fisheries, and more have been made out of concrete. But, people who work in masonry all still say it sounds like a horrible idea, unless it's coated in an epoxy of some kind. Most recommend specific marine grade epoxies that would cost upwards of $60 a gallon, and have to be special ordered.
Now, this wet cement doesn't worry me as much, because SO many aquarium people have used cement for so long. Yes, the lime will leech out eventually, even though it will take years before it's fully cured.
What does worry me is the dry cement, with silica causing problems. That just seems scary to me.

chris_harper2 Feb 14, 2007 01:08 PM

I do find it a bit scary that people use Great Stuff and styrofoam and polystyrene so readily. There are some pretty serious build codes regarding these products.

I used to know a lot about concrete but really don't keep up on it much. I used to mix my own blend with portland, sand and some sort of acrylic fortifier. Today I'd probably just buy a tub of Quickcrete since I'd be doing it on a smaller scale.

I'm not exactly sure how Quickcrete and Xypex differ and would not worry about it much.

One last comment regarding concrete. There have been numerous delicate and/or rare species that have been bred in enclosures containing faux rockwork made from concrete. Anything from fish to invertebrates to amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. So I doubt the safety issues are that significant.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Redmoon Feb 14, 2007 05:40 PM

I never thought of it, but, so many people point out that heat guns or hair dryers help you form Great Stuff. It melts it into shape for you, instead of having to carve it. And then they put it under heat lamps?

Redmoon Feb 14, 2007 06:53 PM

The point in that was- melting styrofoam produces toxic gasses. I would assume that Great Stuff would make the same toxic gasses when it melted. Thus, the problem with putting it under a heat lamp.

icytea_thunder Feb 14, 2007 06:05 PM

Great stuff is only flammable while coming out of the can because of the gas. Ive used it with both sand and the coco fiber. the sand works well, but i guess it does depend on the animal. The coco fiber shouldnt be too much of a problem because it decomposes really slowly. You should get about 5 years of life out of it. When it does get to that stage it shouldnt be to hard to recoat. Those are just my thoughts. Here is a guy who made his own mixture but i havent really looked into it, just another option.
http://www.poison-frogs.nl/e03.html

jdillow Feb 14, 2007 08:58 PM

Great Stuff is "Flamable During Dispensing" and Combustible When Cured". Now the Combustible part occures with open flames and at temps of 240F or greater. Unless you are building a volcano, you're set. The temps of the tank should never get that hot.

I haven't tried the cocoa fiber, but it sounds pretty durable. The natural wear would add a little more character.
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That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

leapingleos Feb 14, 2007 07:28 PM

ok. so I was also interested in great stuff & heard how flamable it supposedly is. so I went out & bought a can. I squirted out 10 dabs that ended up expanding to the size of a silver dollar. then guess what? I put a lighter to it. the stuff didn't stay burning unless I kept a open flame in contact with it. the longer I let it cure it seemed the less it wanted to burn. so my guess is that the propellant in the can may be what really flammable moreso that the Great Stuff itself. I will say that the warning on the cans says that the foam is flamable & not to expose it to heat over 240degrees. I know that nothing near my herps is even close to that. kinda fun doing your own testing on products instead of taking everyones word for it. go buy a can & try it out. kids ask your parents first. =p

Redmoon Feb 15, 2007 08:03 AM

Regardless of it actually staying on fire, if you had an issue where your heat lamp touched it, or if it was over a heat pad that malfunctioned, I could see it melting. I would think that would be toxic, even if it's not flammable.

jdillow Feb 14, 2007 03:42 PM

Check out these sites:

http://pets.webshots.com/album/556368116TZdPUl?start=0
http://www.blackjungle.com/gallery/talltank/page1.html
http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Furniture.html

I have tried the Great Stuff method with Bed-a-Beast. It is time consuming but the results are great. I am working on the Great Stuff and Styrofoam method now. I found 2X4 sheets at Lowes in a 6 pack.
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That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

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