Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There has been alot of talk about the negavitiy of buying/keeping adult WC females. Some of it was based on true experinces, some of it was heresay.
I propose to do a online forum real time study to see exactly what happens to at least one WC imported gravid female.
I know this won't prove anything concrete... but it will at least get some information out to the people who "might" in the future, think about obtaining any.
I do not recommend nor discredit anyone wishing to work with Wild caught animals. This is just an experiment.
I have a group of WC females I hold back each year, that for one reason or another look promising. Let it be color, size or pattern. To my dismay, it's usually the ugler ones that produce the nicest babies. You would think it would be otherwise.
I would say, it depends on what male breeds the female over in the mother country.
I will naturally record all the information on all the females I have, but here, let's just work with one. If anyone wishes to have the information on the others, just email me and I will be happy to release any info I have.

WC GRAVID Female 2007-12-Normal Type

Imported Dec 28 2006
Weight 2580 grams

Was set up in a 44 Qt Rubbermaid with Shredded Mulch
Back ground temps at 80 degrees and basking spot at 89 degrees

IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/NightCreatures/eggsfromWCgravid005Medium.jpg[/IMG]

She shed Jan 13, 2007

During this time, I have not attempted to feed her.
I did treat her for all external parasites.

On Feb 15th, she laid 10 fertile eggs.

I remove the eggs and incubate them at 88 degrees.

Here she is after being removed from the eggs

IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/NightCreatures/eggsfromWCgravid012.jpg[/IMG]

I weigh the eggs and place them in a container with 50/50 vermiculite and water. I write all the information on the seal (I use 1/2 inch glass)

I remove all the bedding from her container and replace with fresh bedding. I will wait for her to shed (usually within a week) and will offer her a few small rats after she sheds.

I will post again on her progress. She currently weighs in at 1675 grams. The clutch weighed 941 grams.
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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

container with gravid female:

Female after laying:

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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

very cool thanks for taking the time to try this
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Albinos Unlimited home of the Jester ball.
website coming soon

So everyone knows and can keep themselves out of potential trouble, wanted to let everyone that didnt know. Importing any gravid or pregnant reptile or even mammal is Illegal. And there has been importers in trouble for it. Though its not a law that is enforced that often, they can arrest the people selling them and the end user as well.. Be careful..

Brian

Please provide me with information to back up this claim.
I've been keeping, breeding, selling repitles for thirty years, and I have never heard, read or seen anyone ticketed, arrested or charged with pocession of a gravid ball python imported into this country.
Please post a link, a telephone number or a source that you are using to back up this claim.
Thank you.
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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

well, call usfw and ask them if its a lacy act law to import a gravid snake. Better yet when you import some while theyre being inspected tell the inspecter that they are gravid, haha.

Im just giving you the truth, do people get away with it? Yes, but if you import or buy any gravid imported animal you can and will get in trouble..

bottom line.. especially for rob at rk, why dont you call and ask..

anyway, hope this helps

Brian

I would love to see where this information was allegedly obtained. I have been importing for close to 8 years now and do not know of any law that regulates the importation of any gravid animals. I have had USFW inspectors even comment on how gravid some of the reptiles I have imported were at the time they were inspecting the shipments so if there was a law preventing such they would have stopped it then or seized the animals. If you truly have proof (and not just hearsay) of such information please post it.
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....I would rather have a Bottle in front of me.....than a Frontal Lobotomy....

Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.rkreptiles.net
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

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If usfws wanted to bust your balls, they can ticket you for every single egg a chameleon drops in a bag...and we know it happens all the time.....becuase each egg viable or not, has to have cities.....a gaboon viper have babies in bags all the time, and people get fined all the time becuase even witht he goo and all, its extra animals not listed on the papers.....
its lacey act violation to import gravid ball pythons period. Reason being, the countries of origin cannot "tax" on eggs not hatched there.....so they prohibit exportation of gravid females.....also those females are supposed to be released as well...they cant be released when they are sent here.....
on top of all that.....any knowingly gravid animal of any type or unweaned mammal cannot be imported via IATA regulations.....its in the rule book....and usfws is supposed to enforce that.....
they just dont seem to care for ball pythons I guess....but they would and have confiscated ball python eggs that are layed in transit....thats a fact seen by my own eyes....why? becuase they are not ont he documents....

sorry for typing so fast and some errors, but its a lacey act violation because since the countries prohibit gravid female ball pythons to be exported, the lacey act is a law that enables the u.s. to charge you for breaking another countries laws, even if its not against the law here......I wouldnt be surprised if they arent investigating gravid balls as it is....tracing them back from buyers to importers.....and then to exporters....

I've been importing animals from Africa and South America for some time now, it is 100% illegal to import a gravid snake..........Does it get done, yes................Sometimes animals come in and they ovulate, after they arrive.

I am very friendly with many DEC officers in the NY, area....Give one a call up and ask them if you can import a gravid animal. Anyone who has been importing snakes for a long time should know the answer to this, most of the time the DEC does not know if they are gravid nor do they care to check but it is 100% illegal and you will be fined. You will be fined for incorrect packing even if it is not your fault and you will be fined and possibly brought up on charges for importing gravid animals. This is directly from the horses mouth, I deal with DEC on the regular @ NY airports. Hope this helps

Mike Brooks
TNS Reptiles
Long Island,NY
631-732-4233

I meant USFW, they are tied here with DEC...But it's still illegal.

What is the code? Where is this written? You say it is illegal, yet you have ads selling "GRAVID FEMALES" IN 100 Lots.
I in no way wish to commit an illegal act. But I know of no law that states an animal can not be imported if it is pregant.
Could you please provide me with a link or something where I may read this law? Thanks
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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

I imported over 100 adult normals, i do not have 100 lots for sale the ad says 20 more so please before you go making silly comments get your facts straight..Every single animal I have for sale ovulated months after importation. Cities documents are 1000's of pages long, why dont you take a little effort and call your local fish and wildlife and ask them........I know it sounds like a crazy idea but they make phones. Your asking people to produce a document which probably only exists in a USFW handbook, but it is illegal. Call and ask, I know it because of being told, i directly import, i deal with the people who inspect the bags.

I'm trying to help you out with a question you have, take that into consderation pal.

Mike Brooks
TNS Reptiles
Long Island, NY
631-732-4233

What I would like to know is how do you find the exporters in Africa. I mean do they have websites or do you just have to know. You hear of all the big names importing some new morph from Africa and paying huge sums of money for them, but how do they know when they find the new morphs? Just curious.
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1.1 Caramel Albinos
1.0 Spider
1.0 Mojave
1.0 Pinstripe
1.1 Piebalds
1.1 Het Caramel Albinos
0.3 Pastels
0.19 Normal Balls
1.0 Coastal Carpet Python
1.0 75% Diamond 25% Jungle Carpet Python

np
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

and they usually burn you, i've been burnt for 10,000's of dollars until i found somewhat standup guys. Africa is a touchy subject here in the US, most of the BIG BOYS do not import anymore because they've been burnt as well. While some do, usually they will buy the animal from a broker this way there is little or no chance of being burned...Some of them do directly import and have very good connections in Africa, if you're looking to try and import. I would say two wors BE Careful, most likely your shipment on the first try will not make it to the US. If it were that easy then everyone would be doing it.

Mike Brooks
TNS Reptiles
Long Island,NY

Amen to that. I have been ripped of for 10's of thousands of dollars some from exporters that I had used for years without problems some from brand new exporters. It is always a risk which is why I don't really import much any longer.
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....I would rather have a Bottle in front of me.....than a Frontal Lobotomy....

Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.rkreptiles.net
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

_____

I am sure , and 100% so, that no "pregnant" animal can be knowingly imported....I am not too sure if this applies to reptiles in GENERAL.....I am also 100% sure that the issue here is mostly gravid ball pythons. Bieng gravid ball pythons, it is 100% a violation of the lacey act(enforced in this case by violating another countries laws), as the countries of origin(togo/ghana/benin) prohibit the export of gravid BALL pythons.....one main reason is they screw up the quota system by cheating it, and they do not get the 50cents or so a head that is exported......they lose out on some good much needed money.....AND the females that are supposed to be released after laying are not.........so in essence they are breaking 4 laws of those countries, and they are prohibitions!, thus violating the lacey act....

Sorry again, I meant that I do not know if this applies to reptiles in general as I am not sure if gravid(not pregnant) reptiles fall under pregnant in the iata regulations/usfws regs.....pregnant is a term reserved almost exclusively for mammals......

I took it upon myself to get to the bottom of this and get a striaght answer. With talking to four departments, ranging from Managment Authority to Law Enforcement, the answer is......
There is no answer. Not one person I talked to (and at last count that was seven different people in four departments) and an answer. Well, not an exact answer. I was told they would check into it and get back to me. None of them could find a law or rule or statement that said that importing gravid reptiles was against the law.
I didn't ask for them to clarifly, the difference between a pregant mammal and a graivd reptile. I think I was confusing them enough about importing reptiles.
When I get a call back, I will post what their final answer is.
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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

Usfw probably doesnt enforce it often because they dont know the law.. Just like until recently usfw would let insects come into the country in reptile shipments which isnt legal.

Let them know its a lacey act law and possibly an IATA violation. ALso LAcey act covers it if the exporting country has a law against exporting gravid animals. Lacey act also says if you ship any animal interstate that you MUST list on the outside of the box the names and quantity of whats inside.

If you cant get an answer from USFW better to contact the guys that enforce the law and contact Robert S Anderson dept of justice.

Robert S. Anderson E-mail: robert.anderson8@usdoj.gov
Senior Trial Attorney Environmental Crimes Section Environment and Natural Resources Division U.S. Department of Justice You can probably get a phone number pretty easy. There is a cell number listed on google search if you type in his info. Let us know.

maybe he can get you a correct answer. I know that Ive been told by inspectors and have seen animals confiscated. So would be interesting if it wasnt truly illegal?

Brian

Your telling me, that the Agency that writes the laws, enforces the laws, don't know the laws?
What a joke.
I am going to wait and see what they say when they return my call. If they return my call.
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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

on getting some answers, I'm not sure why. Anyways Brian is correct there are many of these guys who have no idea what the law is, it gets changed frequently, things are updated.etc..etc..They are illegal, you dont need to find any answers. When you do get a call back please let us know so we can rest easy. And next time you make comments about my ads, please know what you are talking about.

Mike Brooks
TNS Reptiles
Long Island,NY
631-732-4233

I am very intense. I take it to the extreme. If I don't know something, I find out. Every year, year after year, WC gravid feamles are imported and sold. I don't go by heresay. If I am told by the USFW it is illegal, then we need to get the practice stopped. In fact, we should stop the importation of all ball pythons of 1000g or larger during the breeding season, just to make sure no female comes in graivd, ovulating or has follicles.
I see you are using a "loophole" by saying you bring in normal females, that just happen to become gravid once they get here.
That is kind of a gray area, don't you think?
I'm not here to fight, or cause problems. I just want to get to the bottom of this one issue. I don't wish to get myself into any trouble, or cause any other hobbyist likewise.
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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

Either way, even if there is no law prohibiting importation of any gravid reptile species, its still a lacey act violation cause it is a well known fact among All importers that ACTUALLY import animals...not broker or jobbers, that ghana, togo, and benin....specifically PROHIBIT exportation of gravid ball pythons......I have had boxes come in that say "non-gravid females!!" all over ...... except in french.....and in fact there was even a french language document from a vet stating the animals were not gravid...and they werent.....i have had exporters tell me their shipments for export got confiscated because it had gravid females in it.....so to make this long story short.....its a violation of the lacey act to import gravid female ball pythons for sure........reason, becuase the lacey act is a law that enforces other countries laws....

not a joke at all and usfw does not write the laws. The inspectors do OJT (on job training) to keep up with the laws and id of reptiles and other animals. Ive had inspectors say how nice green tree python and it was an emerald tree BOA. Not every single law is well known by those who enforce it. LIke i said about insects. In Miami, insects were very often shipped in with reptiles from other countries. USFW let them in and until just recently they started confiscating them because they didnt realize there was a law against it. Ask anyone who imports MIA port and has tried to get milipds in recently.

anyhow, if you want to get a real answer the listed person above could help, if not, wait and see if USFW tell you right or not..

And by the way, if you get yours from a guy with first name starting with "I" then he knows and you can ask him.. anyone who has been importing for awhile should know..