Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi i have a CALIFORNIA MOUNTAIN KINGSNAKE (male) and a California King Snake(female) can i breed these 2 snakes
can someone please tell me

Yes you can breed them but the Cal King will probably try and eat your Cal Mtn king. I'm not sure why you would want to do that. There's not much of a market for that hybrid.
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

...but maybe you want to work on your husbandry before dabbling in hybrids or breeding in general.

That tank is way too small for that king. There is no place to hide. How do you provide a heat gradient when the snake is bigger than the tank?
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Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
2.4.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Hypo Everglades Rat Snakes
2.1.0 Baird's Rat Snakes
1.2.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snakes
1.1.0 Trinket Rat Snake
1.0.0 Japanese Rat Snake
1.1.0 Salt and Pepper Bull Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Het Amel San Diego Gopher Snake
0.1.0 San Diego Gopher Snake
3.2.0 Sonoran Gopher Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
2.1.0 Gray Banded Kingsnakes (1.1 River Road, 1.0 Non-Locale Specific)
1.0.0 Hypermelanistic California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Albino High White California Kingsnake
0.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
0.1.0 Florida Kingsnake
1.1.0 Boa Constrictors
0.1.0 Dumeril's Boa
2.0.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
1.1.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Woma Python
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.1.0 Macklot's Pythons
1.1.0 Western Hognoses
1.1.0 Malagasy Giant Hognoses
1.0.0 Blacktail Cribo

LIZARDS
1.0.0 Frilled Dragon
3.1.0 Bearded Dragons (2 Normal, 1 RedXGold, 1 Citrus)
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
1.0.0 African Fat-Tail Gecko
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
0.1.0 Banded Gecko

FROGS
2.2.0 Southern Bell Frogs
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
1.1.1 White's Tree Frogs
0.0.2 Gold Frogs

No, you shouldn't try, as the Cal king may attack and eat the mountain king. And by the looks of that pic, the Cal king looks hungry.

Where did you get the Cal mountain king?

Seems to me that you will need experience with snake husbandry before you attempt breeding. Go ahead and ask questions here so that your snakes can be as well off as they can be in a cage.
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Mark

Posted by: uni64ca at Fri Feb 16 06:05:30 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

hi i have a CALIFORNIA MOUNTAIN KINGSNAKE (male) and a California King Snake(female) can i breed these 2 snakes
can someone please tell me

I cant tell you it would be near impossible to breed these two together. I have done many hybrid breeding and this is one that would be fantastic IF it worked. I agree that your cali would EAT your mtn king in a heartbeat.

There has never been any natural hybrids found of the MTN king X Calif King. There are lots of natural hybrids found. Even gopher x cali. In calif the cali kings are found in the same places as the mtn kings are. If there was a chance they would breed someone would have found one by now. This is why I said it would be great if someone could do this in captivity. There would be a lot of interest in this hybrd breeding. But my experience says it is impossible.

You can also go over to the hybrid forum and ask this question where you will be better receieved.

I too think this would be a very hard cross to achieve. I know one person who has tried and without fail everytime they were together the zonata freaked out, pacing the cage to get away from the Cal King. In nature they are found in the same general areas but the mountain kings stick mostly to rocks and moist shaded areas and the Cals stick mainly to the grassy open areas. They are both snake eaters and the mountain kings seem to be very aware that the Cals are bigger and stronger. I once found a zonata and a Cal in the wild in a granite crevice and the zonata was balled up in the tightest possible part of the crevice while the Cal was in the wider part and looking right at the zonata as if waiting for it to move so it could eat it.

Ya I have found calis and mtn kings in the same rock piles. For some reason in my experience the calis look thin. Don't know why excpet there is not a lot of rodent food in those rock areas.

Please don't do like the many others out there that seem to be "hell-bent" on doing all this "mix-and-match" trend that seems to be taking over the hobby.....Are the pure strains of species that are available on the market really that BORING??...People should be more interested in snakes themselves, and not just what kind of "GOOFS" they might be able to produce.......this stuff was never even given a second thought years ago!!...........This is not meant in a mean way at at all, but I think this hybrid/cross/intergrading thing is getting rediculously out of control.....I've talked about this very subject with MANY OTHERS...and as soon as these snakes leave the breeders hands, it seems that the genetic background of the animal is forgotten,misinterpreted,no record kept, and so on......and from then on the snakes positive identity is gone forever.......then be sold to someone else that was told it was a "@##$5^&3@2%....from so and so,..I think?"....this is how this works, I don't care how honestly a snake is represented when sold!! if you cannot tell what it is from looking at it,..there is a problem. And even if it does look pretty much like a certain species, there can be lots of gene-flow from other stuff "floating around in it from previous generations......I would like to see more people do more selective breeding on "pure" strains, and refine them to have ultra quality outcomes,.....but I guess that would be just plain BORING to some.....I'm sure over there on the "Hybrid Forum" the reaction will be quite the opposite....but they are in my opinion ruining their own hobby, although they don't realize it....Given time this will absolutely "WREAK TOTAL HAVOC" in the hobby........... anyway, that is my take on this,.....best regards,..........Doug

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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Oh great another hybrid debate.

Ya they are really boring...

YUK!

I never claimed hybrids were, or can't be beautiful snakes. What they look like was not the issue at all....the one you have is a very pretty one in fact.......like you stated, The debating of this goes nowhere, as it just goes back and forth with absolutely no end result.................................Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

I don't see a problem with people breeding the hybrids, as long as there are guys out here like you who are sticking to the pure strains...
I for one don't care what they look like, I think they're all cool...

#4$%@ AWESOME HYBRID (wallpapered that for awhile)
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Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

MAN, you need sunglasses to chill out with a snake THAT COOL. Beautiful animal ya got there Rainer.
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

Sure Blewrosy that snake is far far superior to a dingy old non hybridized normal like this one. Im glad you made one like that makes the normals pale in comparison.

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Big Jack Bronson

Big Jack,

Not saying that a honduran or even a albino cal king isn't beautiful. Thay have just been done to death.

Maybe you would have liked living 100 years ago when every male wore the same black suit and hat.

I happen to look very good in a suit and hat thank you lol, Both snakes are very nice looking. Bluerosy's is pretty bad a** but jacks is a very beautiful representation of a honduran milksnake.
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-J.Hill

the thing about these hybrids they all come out different when they come out of the egg. Kinda like a box a chocolates. You never know what you are gonna get. Makes hatchling time a lot more fun.

These are all floridana x honduran hybrids. Same thing as posted in above post. As you can see if you breed any two of these you will get a plethora of different snakes. Now does'nt that sound fun.

Either way i work with hondurans and other species as well. I don't like hondurans to much because they are spastic when they are neonates. They thrash around and bite. Most of all I hate taking pics of hondurans becausde they will not curl up or sit still.

[img]http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={D216A502-3A75-4F3A-9D8F-7459E0E9F38A}&exp=f&moddt=38935.6254431366&ssdyn=1[img]

corn x honduran:

various other hybrid projects:

You know I’m not going to knock hybrids. I am curious if you are just seeing what you get or do you have a result in mind that you are working towards realizing through hybrids? I suppose it could be both, and if something really cool shows up you could refine it, duplicate it and all that.
For example could you desire a red and white chain king type replacing the black with red and “borrow” the red from a Nelson or something and hope to realize it by hybrids or whatever it takes to get there. I am wondering if there is something you are specifically hoping to produce from selecting which snakes to work with?
Another thing, since Hondurans are so spastic, is there a possibility to create a Honduran with a Brooks type personality? Are the different behaviors something that could be refined as well?

I don't know, while they are really cool "looking" but whats wrong with a snake being snappy when little, and is that really a reason to hybridize? Also how long till some that look like hondurans are sold to someone then those bred and look like hondurans. And then someone misreprestents them they get into other blood lines, and there is no hondurans even left. Or the reverse for brooksi. I find that it would be impossible to screen people to make sure they would market thier own hatchlings honestly. I can't lie that they are really cool but I mean still, while the possibilities are endless. Look at how many variations and morphs have been made with non-hybrids. I don't think that pure animals are out of new things any time soon. Just my .02
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-J.Hill

take any time at all to start fouling things up,...because they already are, and HAVE been for some time,...only it will get progressively worse as time goes on!!. I'm always being asked by people what they have!...and they always claim it was sold to them as a (whatever)....by so and so, who said it was a "?????or maybe I just thought that's what he said!!!!!!!". The people that are making the "mutts" know full well this happens all day long, but they could care less because they themselves usually have nothing to do at all with any "pure" species/subspecies of snakes, except maybe to hybridize them too!LOL......If these crosses/hybrids stayed within just those people that were involved with them, then I couldn't care any less what they breed......But anybody with a thought process in their head, knows this is certainly NOT THE CASE.....sure some look cool, some look ugly, this has NOTHING at all with the price of tea in China whatsoever....that IS THE ISSUE HERE, not what they look like....anyone thinking that some of these don't get unknowingly introduced to the market after the breeder "made" some, is looking through an "ELTON JOHN" sized pair of "rose colored glasses!......this is the ONLY point I'm trying to make, nothing more....one thing you WON'T find me doing, is posting every "pure" animal I own on the "hybrid" forum, as I'm sure they would take that as a very NASTY gesture..............Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Hybrids have been done in the colubrid morph market a long time ago. Where do you think most of the "supposed" pure morphs came from? I Can tell you from first hand knowledge that a lot of the top breeders in the 80's were breeding hybrids to create new morphs. Those same morphs that you consider to be pure and worry about being polluted.

Ugh, I can tell already after you just started posting here that I do not have the energy to argue with someone like you. Been there done that. Have fun while you do because you are the type that will burn out fairly quickly and we won't see you on here any longer. Now if I continue feeding you will will stick around a little longer . But I have not decided to do that yet. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. I will keep you in suspense..HA HA HA!

Nothing I have has anything else in it... So don't bother with the genetics lesson.....you do have a very unique quality about you, and that is your ability to make nasty slick comments to people........I bet you don't go to bars and talk like that.
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

........I bet you don't go to bars and talk like that

I'm your huckleberry.

Who goes into a place full of drunk people and insults them besides another drunk person lol But to add to the arguement:

Even if the snakes are not 100% pure if you technically think about it nothing really is. And with morphs they are'nt natural at all. But that does'nt mean I have to like it or endorse it. I mean when it comes to me wanting to buy say a brooksi kingsnake, I don't want to breed it to another brooksi (supposedly a pure animal) and have banded offspring pop out. I just want to get something and have the babies look like the parents lol Get what I pay for essentially. I think that the domestic/tamer captive snake thing is just trying to make it look better to the common public. But I mean one of the reasons I like snakes is because they are "wild different and sometimes a challenge" I guess its not totally bad but still it can't be totally good either, I just think it will do more harm than good for me personally.
But like I said above, hybridization is going to happen, whether or not it will be good for the hobby is the debate but I think we should focus people trying to illegalize our hobby.
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-J.Hill

I hate to break it to you but a lot of morphs in the colubrid market that are consider pure are actually derived from hybrids.

The hybridizers that so called "purists" fear have already struck. They are usually the breeders who are very adament about species being kept pure but have been secretly closet hybridizing for years. They are not the known hybridizers of today, but instead the well respected large and well known breeders who founded a lot of our morph stock.

Breeding back a couple generations after injecting a reccessive gene is all that is needed to create a visually "pure" morph commanding high dollar in the market. As We speak today this market has already passed us by. The days of high dollar new colubrid morphs are long gone. What we are left with today are hybridized animals accpeted as pure.. The really sad part is most do not even know this and the ones that do will not say anything because if the hobby has accepeted something as pure then why rock the boat. As you can see I am not one of these people. Other that know what I am talking about do not want to be the first to advertise their stock for what it really is. Why? Because if they do then people will buy the same thing from the other breeders that do not.

As I get more and more into snake breeding I guess alls I or anyone else can do is try and keep stuff pure and if I do hybridize labeling it correctly. But I guess even though I don't like it, If it looks the way and acts the way its supposed to maybe it does'nt really matter especially with morphs, as they really aren't normal in the first place. Its just when hets get introduced into the normal looking het for nothing guys it kind of ruins that section of it.
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-J.Hill

"...a lot of morphs in the colubrid market that are consider pure are actually derived from hybrids..."

Can you give some examples?

Tim

Southern reptiles originated 5 new morphs. AFter the owner died his son told me they were all hybridized and bred back.

Later a partner of the Culattas originated a couple morphs. I was told by the son that these were also hybrids.

Now how many morphs and what morphs have been posted here before? Maybe others can chime in and say.I don't want to sit here and argue alone because i don't have time to get on the computer that much.

Both Southern reptiles is defunct since the owner died and his son ran it into the ground. His partner lost his snake in Katrina and has moved on. All these people are no longer in the hobby even though they were major players and made a lot of money.

A very large breeder of colubrids who passed away about 5 years ago also hybridized. He worked in conjuntion with other breeders in breeding loans and bought their stock and brokered hybrids.

I myself have bred many different morphs together from that exist in nature on different geographical parts of the planet. Guess what.The genes on a lot of them are allelic. This is something a lot of breeders want to ignore or dismiss. Do you have any idea of the odds on these allels matching up?? The frequency of it happening is astounding. Yep these spp live thousands of miles apart and breeders say it must be because of "evolution" has carried these genes thousands of miles from a single snake....WAIT...WHAT DID THEY SAY??? hmmm. SOunds like if all snakes then originated from one snake they hybridized in nature. So now which is it?? Did people hybridize them or did nature LOL! HA HA HA HA!

Unless you captured the stock yourself or know the person who did very well. You can't say for sure what it in your "pure" snake. But going out to capture snakes is not well accepted in this hobby either. Something about buying captive born. Commercial collecting is no longer lucrative and thats another reason people don't see a lot of new blood in breeders collections. heh heh!

Of course then when you put a snake into a rubbermaid and selectivly breed for color the animal is no longer pure any more either. Thata an arguement we have heard here many times as well.

Most people new to the hobby want to have a nice looking snake that is easy to care for. Most of these snakes still die in captivity after a short while due to the snake not eating or escaping and then still dieing out of there natural environment.Wouldn't it be better to start people on a pretty snake that will make a stronger captive and not one that takes special care and needs.

I say enjoy what you have. Sell it for coin or just keep them as a hobby. Good on you. Don't sweat the small stuff in life. Its all gonna pass away someday anyway.

You didn't answer my question. What morphs of snakes currently in the hobby being represented as "pure" are actually hybrids?

Tim

yes I did answer your question. Re-read the post.

No you didn't. A morph is something like an albino Honduran milksnake. You did not name any specific hybrid morphs being marketed as "pure." By saying "you can't prove it's pure," doesn't make the animal in question a hybrid.

I love how "pro-hybrid" people assume that everything in the market is hybridized, without having any proof to back it up!

Tim

I love how "pro-hybrid" people assume that everything in the market is hybridized, without having any proof to back it up!

I gave you the name of one known high profile big breeder. Thats better proof than just listing all the pure morphs that are actually hybrids. Now it up to you to do a small amount of research. This has also been discussed on this forum at length and you can find some of the info here if you use the search function.

Beleive it or not I have friends in this hobby and don't want to list where every pure animal originated and piss people off just because you asked a question. There are other people to consider and I don't want to aleinate those folks. If you are really interested you will discover and unearth a lot more and you will learn something along the way.

Besides if i tell you you won't beelive me unless you check it out yourself.Right?

..and I already stated I don't have the time to argue and explain every hybridized morph and their origins just to have this question asked by someone on here a few week from now.. I think if you REALLY care then you will find out from the info given. If you don't then continue on beleiving what you want. I don't care. I like all snakes. Heck I just got a pair of hypo pueblins last week from a guy who was shaocked to hear they are hybridized. He said he got them from so and so and I said yes the guy he got them from lived near the originator who hybridized them. He asked me why I would want to pay a high price for something that was hybridized and I said because I think they are beautiful.

I also breed and have bred a lot of locality specific snakes. Rosys boas are a snake that is important to me to come from this road and that rock on this hill. Thats what I like. But I don't mind people crossing them because if one does the proper research you can get locality pure animals. If you don't know or care then why should it matter to you? If it matters then you should know who and what you are working with.

bluerosy said "Of course then when you put a snake into a rubbermaid and selectivly breed for color the animal is no longer pure any more either. Thata an arguement we have heard here many times as well."

That is true to and extent but here are a few examples of how locality or purity can matter even it your goal is not to keep them wild. If you selectivly breed Davis Mtn. graybands you will tend to end up with high band count and highly speckled alterna patterns. If you selectivly breed Hwy. 277 graybands you will tend to end up with bright colored low band count Blair's patterns or reduced banded alterna patterns. And if you selectivly breed Langtry graybands you could get lightened or darkened Blair's patterns but you could go for 10 generation and never get an alterna pattern. So in all cases they may not look like typical wild snakes but they will not look like each other either. So different pure snakes have different potentials hidden that can be brought out.

"Pure" is a relative word. "Hybrid" is not.

Tim

define pure.

photo courtesy of J.P

You STILL haven't answered my question. Maybe I'll do your definition (which I've already stated is relative) when you cough up the information on what hybrid sankes are on the market being offered as "pure."

Tim

LOL Tim. You just don't get it.

I'll say it again, if i tell you then you will not beleve me anyway and then I have to sit and answer all your other questions.

A while back I posted that I found 26 moutain kings in one weekend. A poster didn't believe it and asked me how to do this. When i gacve him certain hints on elevation, habitat and certain times of the year that was not good enough. I told him if I tell him he will not learn what I did along the way. Besides then everyone will jump on me for giving out public information. This is similar. YOU have the power to click on your keyboard. I told you I will not and you keep insisting.

If you type in a few key words like Cullatta, southern reptiles ect ect you might get somehwere. Otherwise just beleive what you want. I already told you I don't care if you beleive me or not. So why should I. I could tell you in private email but I don't know you well enough that will will be plastering my emails to you on here for all to read. Maybe if you called me and we spoke a while and I got to know you I will give you bits of information as I see fit.

I don't see what that has to do with your seeming inability to answer a simple question.

You stated: "I hate to break it to you but a lot of morphs in the colubrid market that are consider pure are actually derived from hybrids. "

Well what are they?

Tim

Can I have a drag off of that?

Not trying to butt in i'm new to this and have been reading with interest. What I think he is trying to say is that why can't you say XXX cali king may be labled pure now but they were derived from XXX and XXX so many years ago and are called pure now but they wern't pure XXXX years ago.

Not trying to butt in i'm new to this and have been reading with interest. What I think he is trying to say is that why can't you say XXX cali king may be labled pure now but they were derived from XXX and XXX so many years ago and are called pure now but they wern't pure XXXX years ago.

I am speaking of morph (reccessive traits) and Tim knows that.Please don't feed him anymore. He thinks he is being funny.

I JFYI I am not talking about cal kings. What I am saying is that large popular well known breeders secretly bred hybrids and bred them back for a few years until they had something that looked like the original parent species. They destroyed anything else that did not look like the parent species. They then started breeding with a small group that looked like one of the parent species was on the fast track to finacial success. Nio one was the wiser.

The old saying. If it looks like, smells like tastes like ect. is what a lot of people fell for. What is even weirder is that some of these people that cheated the herp community were staunch anti-hybrid proponents. Its usually the case of the-lady doth protesteth to much.

There are all kinds of cheats and ripoff artists in this community of herptoculture. Most are not breeders but brokers.

Kinda hard to get mad at someone that 10 years ago sold you a pair of snakes for $4000. and you made $50,000 on in subsequent years. The the blame still does not sit with you because you were ignorant. So it is easier swept under the rug. Get my drift?

I know you weren't talking about cali kings that was an example. I get what your saying but what he wanted to know is you still didn't name the species that you are talking about. You keep going around that question. I undersatand what you are saying but be specific about the species you are talking about that you claim are not pure but are being sold as pure.

Yep, that's EXACTLY what I've been asking and I've been asking it repeatedly and I've been very clear in what the information is that I'm asking for.

It seems "bluerosy," like a number of other "pro-hybrid" folks, seems to have a knack so making claims he cannot substantiate. That's about the only way fans of hybrids can get others to "buy in" to their viewpoint .

Tim

The internet can be a double edged sword. In other words any know nothing can post any such drivel to advance their own agenda. Since thats how you are treating me then why should I give you any info? I already stated my reason why I don't want to post and even offered for you to call me. Have I received a email from you? No, I have not. Even if I did talk to you I am not giving out any info unless I like you and find you different from the way your are posting here.. Do a little homework yourself or gain some respect.

In other words any know nothing can post any such drivel to advance their own agenda.... That seems to be what you are doing

Oh man the secret governments agenda to inject hybrids into the reptile community is headed by bluerosy. I mean come on he already said you could find the stuff on stinking google. And who cares if he likes hybrids does'nt mean you have to drill him for it. And this is comming from someone that does'nt like hybrids. He does'nt want to mess with people and start a shouting match, just look it up for yourself.

Off topic: But can you believe this is'nt a hot topic yet? Also it was nice seeing my screen name pop up a thousand times lol.
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-J.Hill

Buy a clue, and get off your lazy bumms! click and paste, like Rainer asked you, and you'll have your answer. Here's a clue, Cullatta, 2006 archives. Happy shopping!
-Phil

Whats with you guys? Are you a tag team or something. The answer is NO. LOL!

I already explained my reasons why I don't want to post the actual morphs. A simple search you find out for yourself with more information plus then you won't have to take my word on it.

I just did a search and found plenty of info. Do it yourself and then come back and post.

The burden of proof is on you - you're the one who posted the statement which you seem unable to back up.

Tim

Sorry to say this but it seems from everything I read that you are just dancing around the question because you don't have the answer that you claim you have. You just run off at the "keyboard" without having proof to back your claims up.

would you beleive me if I told you? Or are you just bored and curious to start something?

I would like to know. Like I said I'm new to this and I'm trying to absorb all the info I can about herps.

Well Dev, then do what I recomended to tspuckler. Re-read my posts to him. There is lots of good tidbits of information there that you and he missed. I even named one hybrid morph. If you don't beleive anything I say now why would you if I list all the morphs and some history. You obviously did not study my posts. Think of it as a puzzle. Fit two peices together and i will nudge you in the right direction. You have to make it fun for me. After all what do I get out of it?

Then contribute something to this forum besides being rude and obnoxious. Post some pics of your snakes and spend some time here in a positive way and maybe I will lead you in the right direction if you know to ask the right questions. Show me something else besides these sides to you.

Puzzles, piece info together, ... la la la in the time it took you to type that last message you could of typed a straight answer, again with the dancing around the question that seems so simple.

P.S. I'm trying to get some pics up and right now, as soon as I can get a good camera and get them on my comp i'll have them posted.

I have my reason for not wanting to post the animals.

Here. I am just going to start copying and reposting my answers from this thread because it seems you and another person are having reading comprehension problems:

I gave you the name of one known high profile big breeder. Thats better proof than just listing all the pure morphs that are actually hybrids. Now it up to you to do a small amount of research. This has also been discussed on this forum at length and you can find some of the info here if you use the search function.

Beleive it or not I have friends in this hobby and don't want to list where every pure animal originated and piss people off just because you asked a question. There are other people to consider and I don't want to aleinate those folks. If you are really interested you will discover and unearth a lot more and you will learn something along the way.

In bluerosy's defense he has actually posted some questionable aspects around several morphs and actually named them. He made a very strong case for many. It caused many arguements with many deleted posts and I can totally see why he does not want to go through that again.
Here are some of the morphs I think are not pure:
Lavender and amel floridana and brooksi (came from Cal Kings).
Whiteside Brook's (came from ratsnakes).
Hypo Pueblans (came from Hondurans).
Amel Eastern Chain Kings (came from amel Eastern Black Kings).

Here are some of the morphs that I think are pure:
Amel and striped Ruthven's
Amel Nelson's Milks
Spotted and amel Mexican Milks
Amel, Anery and Hypo Hondurans (some question the amels but I believe they are as pure as any import which nobody has locality on).
Amel and Lavender Cal Kings
Amel and anery Corns
Hypo, patternless and anery Graybands, Black Gap locality.
Anery Graybands, Sanderson locality.
Amel Trans Pecos Ratsnakes
Blonde Trans Pecos Ratsnakes
Albino Raosy Boas, Whitewater locality.

Personally I think many more morphs are legit than not. Many of them have actually been found in the wild. Blonde Trans Pecos and anery Corns are regularly found in the wild. 3 albino Trans Pecos were found at one location in the wild and a fourth was found at another locality a couple hundred miles away. There was 2 or 3 albino Whitewater Rosies found in the wild, and at least 1 of those was an adult/subadult.

I think the Silver Subocs may be found in the wild too. What this boils down too more often than not is how many people on a post like this like or dislike the person bringing the points for discussion, and with all the anti hybrid sentiment it is easy to see how the post will eventually end...
Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com

Why are you guys arguing I just asked a question and told my oppinion and it turned into this lol. The thing is your arguing over a thing you agree on, Breeders need to represent their offspring honestly and correctly. Also I had no Idea white sided brooksi were hybrids, thats actually neat cause I would never have guessed if I looked at one for a week. Also a question about the milksnake thing, if hondurans sinaloans nelsons and mexicans were'nt the original albino milk snake how could they all be hybrids or intergrades? Either way thats how they are labeled so what can we really do about it. It would be nice to think that all of our morphs were once caught in the wild with a 1 in a million chance of them being found, but if you look at it that way, how many brooksi morphs, ratsnake morphs, and other morphs would we be without that we all love so much.

Wow this argument magnified quite a bit while I was at school.
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-J.Hill

It is not at all a fact that white sided brooksi are hybrids, a few people on here wondered as it seemed a bit suspect. This is a subject that easily erupts into mass confusion and a pissing contest. It is extremely hard to prove things on a topic like this...it is mostly just opinion. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

It is not at all a fact that white sided brooksi are hybrids, a few people on here wondered as it seemed a bit suspect. This is a subject that easily erupts into mass confusion and a pissing contest. It is extremely hard to prove things on a topic like this...it is mostly just opinion. Tom Stevens

Tom you sure you were not a juror on the O.J. Simpson trial? LOL!

Its hard to reprove anything unless it done in a petri dish in a lab. Even when breeders admitted and conffessed they used hybrids to create a fake morph years later people still don't beleive it. So not even a full confession is enough to convince some people.

As far as the WS brooks you know i was a very close to that situation. One of the most damming facts is that the originator said the line came from the Lemke axanthics that were directly from Lemkes and not outcrossed. To date no other whietsideds have popped up from anyone elses axanthic Lemkes.

The other fact is this originator of the whitesideds also originated the lavender brooks.Coincidence? His partner said they worked on the lavenders together and that they ARE hybrids. So that already makes the originator of the Whitesideds a lier and a closet hybridizer. hmmm.

Another fact is the originator said he was freezing whitesideds to keep the market value and price up up longer. Can you imagine anyone freezing a new morph just to keep the price higher in the market? No. In my opinion he was freezing offspring that favored the look of the ratsnake.

There is more evidence that the originator of the WS brooks bought subadult whitesided blackrats from Miskimmon when he first started releasing them to the public. 6-7 years later the first whiteside brooks appeared.

There seems to be a trend with breeders who originate new morphs to the market. Its not usually just one new morph. I guess winning the lotto 2 or 3 times in a lifetime is easier that I thought.

Now my own personal opinion of the WS brooks is I have kept them and they don't act like floridana should. Also lately I have seen pics of outcrossed lines of the WS brooks and the top stripes looks wider more muddled and dispersed making them resmemble the WS Blackrats even more.

Oh and off topic you mentioned in another post that the WS brooks look like your whitewall speckleds. They don't look similar to me at all. I think the WW speckles are much nicer because of their top-stripe and fading pattern. Much nicer looking IMO.

There is no question that the White Walled Speckled Kingsnakes are superior in appearance to the WS Brooksi. And if the guy admitted that they were hybrids how was he a liar (unless of course he released it several years after say the price went down.) I think only a few whitesided snakes can rival any of the White Wall Speckles and I think that one is New Age Reptiles white sided black rat sire which is an amazing example of its morph, but thats just one animal out of alot that don't look as good. Oh, well they still look cool. Also if the White Sided brooksi were outcrossed to more brooksi would'nt that make them look more like brooksi and less like the black rats they are beleived to originate from? Thanks under all the arguing we are all learning alot.
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-J.Hill

you said "Oh and off topic you mentioned in another post that the WS brooks look like your whitewall speckleds. They don't look similar to me at all. I think the WW speckles are much nicer because of their top-stripe and fading pattern. Much nicer looking IMO"
I agree....the Specks are by far the best looking white side there is. What I meant was all of the white sides are similar in appearance....but when you really examine them closely they have their differences.

Ask yourself this....who will dump thier snakes if it was brought to a public forum that whatever they were keeping are actually Hybrids? Not many....and even when evidence seems to be there....like with the Amel Easterns not growing very large... people will just believe what they wanna believe. I am happy I like both pure and Hybrids....all this talk is not worth much to me. Especially now that my snakes are finished cooling....time to get busy. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

That's a fact, jack! The WW specks are awesome! I'm glad to have good ties within the Texas herping community! All my guys and gals are up and about, and since splendidas are laying already somewhere I fear I am late! I am gonna try to brumate an established pair for a short brumation and see if I get an early clutch! C'mon!
Todd Hughes

Here are some of the morphs I think are not pure:
Lavender and amel floridana and brooksi (came from Cal Kings).
Whiteside Brook's (came from ratsnakes).
Hypo Pueblans (came from Hondurans).
Amel Eastern Chain Kings (came from amel Eastern Black Kings).

Thank you thats all I was asking for. Like I said i'm new to this as was just wanting a strait answer I don't know alot a just wanted info. I wasn't trying to knock anybody but this dancing around stuff was annoying how hard was it to post that instead of saying puzzle this and that together then research this and that blah blah blah.

Thank you thats all I was asking for. Like I said i'm new to this as was just wanting a strait answer I don't know alot a just wanted info. I wasn't trying to knock anybody but this dancing around stuff was annoying how hard was it to post that instead of saying puzzle this and that together then research this and that blah blah blah.

You had the nerve to ask me after I already said no 10x to the other poster. Then you continued this thread by asking me several times and being rude as well as direspectful. Welcome to my imaginary ignore button.

Oh and thats not the entire list of hybrized colubrid morphs. Some important ones were left out.

The only reason I was asking because the way you said No was like you were just talking bulls*it and couldn't back it up. Sorry is I came off disrespectful but you just showed how rude you can be too with that last post.

Also whats the big deal about it anyway like its some big secret no one knows but you and your kepping it all to yourself????

Posted by: DevB at Mon Feb 19 23:26:34 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Also whats the big deal about it anyway like its some big secret no one knows but you and your kepping it all to yourself????

Know what else is funny. Only about 10% of my collection is hybrids. Thats less than most purists. LOL!

If other people knew about it they would not be on here saying they hate hybrids and yet have them in their collection without knowing. Now you can join them. Congrats!

" You had the nerve to ask me after I already said no 10x to the other poster. Then you continued this thread by asking me several times and being rude as well as direspectful. Welcome to my imaginary ignore button.

Oh and thats not the entire list of hybrized colubrid morphs. Some important ones were left out. "

Rainer,

This is clearly what happened in this post:
1. You made a claim about some facts about certain morphs being hybrids or products of hybridization but didn't provide specific information. Then, you act shocked that people actually ASKED you what you were talking about?

2. You were very defensive just at the asking of others? There was no rudeness or signs of disrespect from others simply asking to hear about your thoughts and what you were trying to lead up to.

Imagine if someone was fixing to tell you something about a certain topic of conversation that had been talked about and then this topic brought upon the attention of a small crowd. They all gather around this person that you were talking with, and then this person was fixing to say the main point and then, " Bam ! ", they stop right when they are fixing to speak the crux of what they were trying to say. All of a sudden, you are called " rude " and " disrespectful " when you asked questions to them, the speaker, as everyone else scratches their heads, looking at each other, wondering what just happened and what would make someone do that.

You just had an audience. People were wanting to hear what you had to say, as it was getting interesting.

Why and where did this all come about?

I know I am not the only one puzzled, as you do bring some good information to this forum. It is peculiar why it seemed that you got so worked up over questions about a topic that you were just discussing.

Just think about it, that is all.
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Genesis 1:1

Discern,

First you need to change your username.

Second there is some backround you need to know..This was between Dmong and I when others started jumping in. I only said something to him about unkown hybrids after he started getting nasty with me again. He has already had some posts of his deleted and so he has an axe to grind.

Third a lot of this has to do with prejudice. Thats is ignorant people who like to hate and get others to hate just for the sake of it. most of these posts are very mean spirited and I can smell these types a mile off.

Then another fine gent named tspuckler jumped in. Read it and then follow the posts in order:

I actaully found this thread very entertaining and enjoyed it.

Here are a few things I did say early on..
Southern reptiles originated 5 new morphs. AFter the owner died his son told me they were all hybridized and bred back.

I also breed and have bred a lot of locality specific snakes. Rosys boas are a snake that is important to me to come from this road and that rock on this hill. Thats what I like. But I don't mind people crossing them because if one does the proper research you can get locality pure animals. If you don't know or care then why should it matter to you? If it matters then you should know who and what you are working with.

I do not want to be nasty at all. that's why I didn't post any more on the subject. I would like everyone to sit back and relax, .....as like we both know,...things like this lead nowhere at all.......I think we agree on that...right?.....Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

" First you need to change your username. "

Two comments: Rude......and no reason to change it.

" Second there is some backround you need to know..This was between Dmong and I when others started jumping in. I only said something to him about unkown hybrids after he started getting nasty with me again. He has already had some posts of his deleted and so he has an axe to grind."

I knew all of this already, but thank you for the recap.

" Third a lot of this has to do with prejudice. Thats is ignorant people who like to hate and get others to hate just for the sake of it. most of these posts are very mean spirited and I can smell these types a mile off. "

If this is apparently true, then yes, I would agree. I don't think it is possible though to lump the term " prejudice " in with people asking you to be clear on what your point was. Does it seem that it may be possible that when people either disagree with you or question things, you are quick to act as you just did? If this " prejudice " idea is really your true perception and that is how you feel, then nothing can be done about that, that is simply how you feel. I just hope that you are not using the term " prejudice " to describe the actions of those conversing with you and then disagreeing with you.

" Then another fine gent named tspuckler jumped in. Read it and then follow the posts in order "

I have read the whole thing and tspuckler was doing nothing out of the ordinary but simply asking you to be specific.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

recognize, recognise, distinguish, discern, pick out, make out, tell apart

Like I said Billy you need to change your username.

Besides your animosity towards me is nothing new so quit pretenting to be unbiased.

" recognize, recognise, distinguish, discern, pick out, make out, tell apart

Like I said Billy you need to change your username.

Besides your animosity towards me is nothing new so quit pretenting to be unbiased. "

So now this has really taken a wrong turn down the road of absurdity.
I simply make a post just discussing the way you acted towards others, and just simply was talking to you, and:

a ) this is all you could come up with in this shallow and childish response?
b ) you are now in an unhealthy way, have become obsessed with my username
c ) are now saying that I have animosity towards you? What in the world....?

Rainer, this has to end. This thread was interesting, you refused to answer questions, people called you on it, you reacted very strangely, and now the world can see on this forum that you have decided to be rude to anyone that doesn't agree with your ideas, agenda, etc..

Stick a fork in this bro. It is done.
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Genesis 1:1

Rainer, this has to end. This thread was interesting, you refused to answer questions, people called you on it, you reacted very strangely, and now the world can see on this forum that you have decided to be rude to anyone that doesn't agree with your ideas, agenda, etc..

Stick a fork in this bro. It is done.

In order to preserve the small part of the history of herpetoculture these things had to pass.
I guess I could have just said I prefer not to discuss it. (which i did in so many words and so many times ). But that didn't work. I think the info i gave through this thread people learned a lot more about the history of how and why these snakes came about rather than just a list of morphs and names of people who created them. A lot of good information was given here. Maybe some people will do their own research and follow up. AT least thats what i hope some will become obsessed to do rather than just throw the old anti-hybrid arguements around.

This thread could have turned out by me caving and just naming a few fake morphs and some people beleiving it and some not. What fun would that be? Either way the question will be asked in a month , a year , two years from now and still people will be in the dark. Why because people forget or its not discussed more often. Maybe some people will take an interest and remember this time. These things have been discussed for years on the hybrid forum. But I think it is a very valid topic for this forum as well. It does and will effect herpetoculture for a lot of reasons..

you are now in an unhealthy way, have become obsessed with my username

Yes, I have been obsessed with your username since I read your first posts on here.

are now saying that I have animosity towards you? What in the world....?

All joking aside. To "act" inocently as you have just surprised me.

Changing a username is a pain.

I use to go by resedit everywhere - named after a Mac OS program for modifying or creating a resource fork.

Then I dumped Mac OS for Linux. Then Apple dumped Mac OS for Mac OS X (they are two completely different OSs and should be distinguished from each other).

There's still some forums where I go but resedit because if I changed it to FunkyRes it would be considered bad form - and possibly result in a ban.
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3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

People who are into making sure they represent their snakes correctly don't think it is dancing around. A lot of effort is/was being put into getting answers and you want it all given to you free of charge or with little effort. It is easy to put a list in front of you but anything could have been said, would you believe it? People take better care of things when they have to earn it than when just given to them, mostly. I think they were just trying to get you to think for yourself, so you could form a well informed opinion. Doesn't matter anyway, none of us was there at the breeding so we will never know 100%. I bet Frank made some awesome morphs as well as some hybrids. Hope you don't take this wrong but that attitude seems to me a bit lazy. If you have the time to argue, you have the time to do research. The more you learn, the more you know! Me, I got a lot more to learn!
Todd Hughes

There are of course several lavender cal kings - and several other hypo lines that are not called lavender. I suspect most are pure. Someone (FR?) who did a lot of work with cal kings stated about 1 in 75 wild clutches (depending upon locality) will pop out a hypo.

But it would not surprise me if some cal king hypo lines were borrowed. I think it would be fun to take PB brooksi and breed it into cal king. Not because it would make me any money, but just to see how many generations it would take until you can not tell a het PB cal king that is a hybrid from a "genuine" cal king.

The current amel eastern is probably a hybrid. I'm not terribly experienced with easterns, but it looks to me like they could have used a generation or two more of breeding with easterns to be convincing.

That doesn't mean "pure" amel easterns don't exist, just that the current line I don't think is it. But what does it really matter?

The taxonomical system we have is devised by us for our purposes and to be frank, nature doesn't give a [bleep].

I have a 1959 field guide to Bay Area Reptiles and Amphibians by Doctor Robert C. Stebbins. I'd like to quote part of it:

---
Page [45]
Western Garter Snake (Thamnophis elegans)
This snake is represented by two distinct types in the bay region, one land dwelling and one chiefly water dwelling. There is no evidence that they interbreed here, but in extreme northern California and southern Oregon the two types grade into one another. For this reason they are considered one species.
---

My how times change. Now they are not only telling me that the Pacific Treefrog (Hyla regilla) is now called the Pacific Chorus Frog (Pseudacris regilla) but that they are different subspecies and quite possibly even more than one species, but the only way to tell them apart is by a comparitive mtDNA analysis.

We can look at species in a way differently than they could back in 1959 so as a result, science decided to change how they define a species. Breeding a treefrog from San Pablo, CA with one from Redding, CA use to be a "pure" Hyla Regilla. Now it is a hybrid. Breeding a coast range garter with a santa cruz garter use to be a "pure" Western garter snake. Now it is a hybrid.

It's just a classification system. It is man made and quite arbitrary.

Nitida and Conjuncta Cal Kings I think should be treated differently than Cal Kings - they are a different animal in my mind, but apparently current science says they are not. But two treefrogs that are same in my mind, science says they are different.

This isn't a matter of science being right and me being wrong or me being right and science being wrong, it is a matter of a different perspective on how to look at them. That's all.

Same thing with hybrids.

Snakes bred for deli cup herpers are not a representative of the wild population. If starting a breeding program to repopulate a decimated wild population, it is best to start with specimens from that locale and go as few generations as possible before releasing. A few people keep locality lines pure enough that they may be usable in such a project, but I doubt it. Look at the Scissors Crossing locale. That locale started from some specimens that were not typical and then selectively bred to heighten the pattern - specimens that are called scissors crossing now very well may have all their genes from that locale, but I bet no one has ever found a wild specimen there that has the pattern as developed as what selective breeding produced.

Anyway - I'm rambling.
These snakes are actually all fairly recent descendents from a common ancestor. We split them up into different species to satisfy our need to categorize according to some traits and behaviours, but now, we've even stopped doing that and instead are splitting them up according to mtDNA - which sometimes results in different splits.

Don't be surprised if how we define things changes again - and people who thought they were breeding something "pure" find out that by the new definitions, they've been creating hybrids.

Enjoy deli cup herps for what they are - captive bred snakes that are NOT wild snakes. To see something "pure", buy some boots, a water bottle, and a hat - and go hiking.
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3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

That's what I do! Go see field notes and observations for pure snakes, this forum is for all KING snakes, hybrids are not intergrades, intergrades are not hybrids, or at least they weren't last tine I looked. Show pics of KINGSNAKES!
Todd Hughes

None of those animals listed are hybrids - they're intergrades.

As defined in this forum's glossary -

Hybrid: to herpers, the progeny from a breeding between two species of the same genus or between two genera.

All the snakes listed were the same species.

I'm still waiting to hear of the hybrids currently on the market that are being sold as "pure."

Tim

I reckon I missed the white-sided Brooks being accused of hybridization with a rat snake. If this is the case then that's ONE morph, not the MANY that bluerosy claimed were hybrids. Since white-sided snakes are found in the wild (the Pine Snake forum has Jason Envy's pics of a wild caught white-sided Great Basin Gopher Snake), I'd like to see a little more "proof" on these Brooks being ratsnake hybrids.

Tim

Also, there's White Sided Hognose, White Sided Sonoran Gophers, and the White Walled Speckled Kings which all were wild caught, I think the Hognose was found last year? All sport the very similar pattern as in comparison to the Brooksi and Rat snakes.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Well duh! They're obviously hybrids that were released back into the wild. If you can't prove those animals are pure, then they MUST be of hybrid origin. (OK, I was kidding.)

Tim

"Hybrid: to herpers, the progeny from a breeding between two species of the same genus or between two genera.

Here is a good breakdown from TonyD:

Hybrid - prodigy from captive breedings that cross species or generic lines. Example: Jungle corns.

A further note on locality specific is that "locality" has not been given a definition that is widely accepted either. The current, and in my opinion, arbitrary usage of political borders undermines the concept and habitat or geographical features that contribute to population distinctiveness might be better delineators. As an example, instead of Ocean and Burlingtom County NJ coastal plains milk snakes being two distinct localities they would fall under a single (NJ pine barrens) locality which would more accurately reflect natural distribution.

"I'm still waiting to hear of the hybrids currently on the market that are being sold as "pure."

Keep waiting . There are lots of other people on this forum that know. SO I am not the only one not telling you.

If you read and study what I said and asked some probing questions you might get your answers. Like how many hybrid did I mention from one breeder and his partner. There are a lot fake morphs than just those. I gave some good clues and you can narrow somethings down to get the answers. Also why hasn't anyone done a search on here and come back with what they found. I did a search when this thread started and got answers in 2 seconds (seriously). That pissed me off a little.

I've already posted what I think of Tony D's post. As far as doing searches, it's up to you to back up your statements - not others. You still haven't answered my question, despite it being asked repeatedly.

Tim

LOL!

Tim. Your like the little kid that asks, "how come?", after he's been told no, by his parents, "why not?". The really sad thing is that you could very easily find the answers to your own questions, but apparently your too lazy to do the research yourself. I'll take rude over lazy any day!
-Phil

No Phil, the "really sad thing" is people who make statements that they can't back up. We're all adults here, but the one who's been acting like a "little kid" is the one not giving a straight answer to a realatively simple question. I've already stated that the burden of proof of on the person making the claim. I think most people would agree with that.

Tim

Posted by: tspuckler at Wed Feb 21 06:21:55 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Tim

No Tim. I think the only thing people agree on that you asked a question a hundred times when I gave my reasons for not answering. Then when I offerred for you to do a simple search and come back with some better questions this thread could have been fun and a lot of people could have learned something. But instead your rudness and ignorance stunk the place up.

I think we can all agree on that and that through it all there were some facts given but none where given out like there could have been. Also there is a poster on here who was the first person to hybridize colubrids and I am sure he would have jumped in and said some things if this was not driven by your "back it up statements".n See now everyone lost because of you.

Come back in a month and start this thread in a nice way. Apologize to this communty for taking up so much space and maybe well get on with it.

"you asked a question a hundred times.."

No, I don't think it was quite 100.

"...your rudness and ignorance stunk the place up."

When was I ever rude? I just asked a question.

"Come back in a month and start this thread in a nice way."

I'll come back whenever I please - as long as kingsnake.com will have me.

"Apologize to this communty..."

For what? Asking a question? I thought that's what this forum was for.

Tim

Tim,

IT WAS ALL JUST AN ILLUSION. BUY ALL THE PURE *cough* MORPHS YOU WANT

Tim, don't worry about it. The burden of proof of what really happened is commonplace. In other words, it is shown quite well that egos and immaturity do run rampant here sometimes. Honesty will always give you a straight answer.
-----
Genesis 1:1

..with derogatory remarks like this one..

Tim, don't worry about it. The burden of proof of what really happened is commonplace. In other words, it is shown quite well that egos and immaturity do run rampant here sometimes. Honesty will always give you a straight answer.

SOmetimes people have a reason for not publicly stating something (I mentioned that in my VERY first post). If someone asked you a question that would put you in a precarious position you would decline as well. To continue this here you are showing YOUR egos and immaturity. AFter the pathetic attempts on my character shows your are taking this way to personal. I would rather burn 100 bills than give you an answer. Yours and Tims continued demands will be met with the same results.

I don't HAVE to back up anything. I was not accusing anyone that is posting on here much less a whole new batch of clowns who have learned to regurgitate what they read in TFH books and Jerry Walls editorials in Reptiles magazine....

I don't see how asking a question is "taking this way to personal." I see it as seeking additional information - nothing more.

"AFter the pathetic attempts on my character..." you are the one who accused me of having "rudness and ignorance." I never made any character judgements about you. I simply asked you a question.

"I don't HAVE to back up anything." Yeah, that doesn't do much for your credibility though.

"To continue this here you are showing YOUR egos and immaturity..." you're the one who seems to need to have the last word. I've read about you on another forum and those who posted seemed to all agree on that.

By the way, are you ever going to answer my question? I really want to know more about the alledged hybrids being sold as "pure."

Tim

Can it really be "Proved" either way, also I'll direct you downward on the thread to maybe answer my question down there.
-----
-J.Hill

What the heck are they holding, any reply to my other messages also would be appreciated as they are actual question type quetions.
-----
-J.Hill

Actually the main post that got this whole thing started was this:

" I Can tell you from first hand knowledge that a lot of the top breeders in the 80's were breeding hybrids to create new morphs. Those same morphs that you consider to be pure and worry about being polluted. "

Then you say, " SOmetimes people have a reason for not publicly stating something"

See the contradiction? Now, if you really have reasons that you can't disclose what you know, that is perfectly fine and understandable. No big deal. If that is the case, then perhaps you should have stated BOTH of those statements together. This would have helped tremendously and prevented all of this. Instead, you say the first statement as shown, then people humbly ask questions as to what you are leading to, and then you clam up and refer to these people to go use a search engine. Do you understand why that would appear shady and not trustworthy? Then, to top it off, you again have shown a really direspectful attitude towards anyone that either disagrees with you or asks you questions. See how THAT pollutes this forum?

Not much more that needs to be said, and again, like I have stated many times, I think you offer a lot of good insight to this forum and you have very knowledgeable posts as well. I just think it would benefit everyone if you learn to converse with others more productively.
-----
Genesis 1:1

Are you just pretending to be stupid or do you think that I really am?

" Are you just pretending to be stupid or do you think that I really am? "

Neither. I just posted a post, and you just responded with this:

"Are you just pretending to be stupid or do you think that I really am? "

Very strange and indeed done.
-----
Genesis 1:1

It was a question. Answer it!!!!!!!!!!

Go use a search engine.
ha ha...kidding..

Actually I did answer it with one word: Neither.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

No you didn't answer my question. You need proof to back it up as well. I have asked repeatedly and I've been very clear in what the information is that I'm asking for.

It seems "Discern" like a number of other folks who posted on this thread , seem to have a knack for making claims they cannot substantiate. That's about the only way folks but into their viewpoint .

NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION. DAMMIT!

I think you'd find that people might be willing to answer your questions more readily if you answered the questions they asked days ago.

Tim

" !I have asked repeatedly and I've been very clear in what the information is that I'm asking for. "

You feeling ok? I have answered it repeatedly.
Now, for the second time, I did answer your question with one word, which was " Neither ".
-----
Genesis 1:1

I don't see what that has to do with your seeming inability to answer a simple question.

Well....

If you check I just copied and pasted tspucklers and posts and pasted them onto my simple question to you. The one you said you already answered. Just like (if you re-read the first posts) I politely said I answered mine.

Ok barring the Whitesided Brook's which I see you already caught I see I need to clarify my terminology. I was using the word hybrid loosely. What I meant was man-made crosses.

I am gonna have to disagree on any of them being intergrades though. An intergrade is a natural occuring thing, the result of a nutural blend over thousands of years in the wild. You can not create an intergrade, only duplicate one. By duplicate I mean if you catch two snakes from a natural intergrade zone (such as Yuma Kings) and breed them you are producing intergrades. If you breed a Cal King X a splendida (which is the intergrade that in the wild made Yuma Kings) you do not produce Yuma Kings, you have a man-made cross of subspecies.

There's such a thing as man-made intergrades. Bluerosy stated the animals being marketed as "pure" were actually hybrids. He later posted Tony D's definition of hybrid (crossing a genus, species or both) to support his claim. Well that doesn't support what he says, because crossing subspecies, according to the definition he supplied for "hybrid" does not make hybrids - it makes intergrades or crosses.

So while you may have your own definitions (which don't match up to Tony D's, this forum's glossary or "The Corn Snake Manual" )it still doesn't make the animals hybrids according to the definition bluerosy is using to define "hybrid."

Tim

I am curious as to how you think a human can make an intergrade. One definition of grade is a long slowly rising or falling road. I believe the word grade comes from the word gradual. When I see grade as a root word I see a description of a long slow process as in the thousands of years during which time habitat changed to allow two distinct animlas blend. They changed not only in responce to each other but in response to their shared environment. I do not see how breeding two different subspecies together from widely separated localities can be considered intergrades, as in gradual.

Again that does not change the fact that I did incorrectly refer to manmade subspecific crosses as hybrids, if it did not sound like I was apologizing for that I will say it now. I'm sorry to have been confusing.

I do not see anything graudual about the manmade intergrades, that's why I like to specifically refer to them as manmade intergrades. Sometimes when speaking generally to people who know me I call them, along with all hybrids, crosses. Since there are no widely accepted herpetocultural-specific applications for these terms sometimes I slip into a more personal mode of speaking as if everybody knew what I meant. My close friends would have known what I meant by hybrid based on the contex of the particular discussion and because we have discissed it many times and would have realized I meant crosses or manmade intergrades. Sorry for speaking that way in a public forum.

If I may ask, how do you think according to your definition, a human can create an intergrade?

As defined in "The Corn Snake Manual," an intergrade is when two subspecies interbreed. In the wild this happens with Nelson's and Sinalon milksnakes. Their ranges overlap.

A man-made intergrade would be breeding two subspecies which do not have overlapping ranges (let's say a Honduran and an eastern milk). These would be "man-made" because the subspecies would never meet in the wild.

"Hybrid" is used in the herping world to describe interbreeding genera, species, or both - but not subspecies.

Tim

Ok but where did The Cornsnake Manual take their definition from? The authors obviously did not invent the word. The definition I used came from the glossary of Stebbins Field Guide. Field Guides perdate any herpetocultural texts. The context of the Stebbins guide pertains to wild snakes, there is no consideration given to herpetoculture.

I think the Cornsnake Manual just borrowed the term and attempted to apply it to herpetoculture, as I have done. I would ask the authors the same question. If the root word of intergrade is gradual how can anything manmade be considered gradual?

The kingsnake.com glossary appears to be more in line with Tony D and I's thinking where at the end of definition 2 it reccomends refering to manmade intergrades as "subspecies crosses" in order to separate the two definitions. Taken directly from the kingsnake.com glossary:
Intergrade: 1. An animal that comes from an area where the ranges of two subspecies meet and that shows some characteristics of both subspecies. 2. A baby from a man:made mating of snakes belonging to two different subspecies. It would be desirable to use a term such as “subspecies cross” for the manmade mating to separate the two definitions.

and whole statements by people that posted here,....however I don't think if all of us spent a year or two debating(and arguing) on this it would lead to an ultimate agreement by everyone!(there's no question).......I didn't want to even post anything at all after I saw what this was going to become....but I will say this,....a lot more people that read all this will no doubt give serious thought to a lot that was said......that's hopefully a good thing!!.....and will open some eyes when it comes to buying, breeding, and whatever else......I hope there isn't more nasty posts in response to this,...as anyone can see I'm not trying to be arrogant,sarcastic, or anything aproaching this..........I think most everyone can at least agree with this!..........best regards to everyone,..................Doug
-----
Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Bluerosy gave his definition of a hybrid (as stated by Tony D). The snakes mentioned (except for the whitewall Brooks) do not fit the definition he his using.

Where the definitions came from doesn't matter much. It's their application that matters. For example "ghost" in the corn snake world means hypo x anery. While "ghost" in the ball python world simply means hypo.

You're trying to cross field guides with hobby terms. That's not the point here. The point is that a definition was supplied for "hybrid" but the snakes listed (with the exception of the Brooks) don't fit that definition.

All that "subspecies cross" and "intergrade" talk and definitions are beside the point. I asked which snakes are HYBRIDS that are currently being marketed as pure.

I'm still waiting for an answer on that.

Tim

Well I have given you a list with one hybrid and several manmade crosses, those are all the ones I know. I explained that in the strictest sense of the word you were correct so you don't need to tell me bluerosy has not given you an answer, in his first post he said he wasn't going to. I hope my list helped you out.
I don't agree with you that I'm mixing terms because I am using two different terms, intergrade for natural intergrades and manmade intergrade (or manmade subspecific cross) for manmade ones. I see those using only one term, intergrade, for both natural and manmade intergrades as the ones mixing terms.

"I have given you a list with one hybrid"

The post stated that there were "many" hybrids being marketed as "pure." One is not many.

"in his first post he said he wasn't going to" (give me an answer)

No he didn't.

In fact he stated in his second post to me that he gave me an answer: "yes I did answer your question." When in fact, he did not.

"different terms, intergrade for natural intergrades and manmade intergrade"

As I've stated before, we're talking about HYBRIDS here - not intergrades.

Tim

"In fact he stated in his second post to me that he gave me an answer: "yes I did answer your question." When in fact, he did not."

I was not talking to you. I was talking to Gophersnake (hence the gophersnake post)here is the post:

I hate to break it to you but a lot of morphs in the colubrid market that are consider pure are actually derived from hybrids.

Breeding back a couple generations after injecting a reccessive gene is all that is needed to create a visually "pure" morph commanding high dollar in the market. As We speak today this market has already passed us by. The days of high dollar new colubrid morphs are long gone. What we are left with today are hybridized animals accpeted as pure.. The really sad part is most do not even know this and the ones that do will not say anything because if the hobby has accepeted something as pure then why rock the boat. As you can see I am not one of these people. Other that know what I am talking about do not want to be the first to advertise their stock for what it really is. Why? Because if they do then people will buy the same thing from the other breeders that do not.

This was my first post to you after you jumped into Gophersnakes excahnge with me. you jumped in wanting a list. You know ,you could have researched some things and came back with a few questions or asked me what this or that meant ect. It would have been fun and not turned into this.. Come first as a begger is the saying. I DON'T HAVE TO BACK UP ANYTHING TO YOU MO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU ASK. I THINK THAT PEOPLE HERE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT. lol!

Southern reptiles originated 5 new morphs. AFter the owner died his son told me they were all hybridized and bred back.

I say enjoy what you have. Sell it for coin or just keep them as a hobby. Good on you. Don't sweat the small stuff in life. Its all gonna pass away someday anyway.

"I DON'T HAVE TO BACK UP ANYTHING TO YOU MO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU ASK."

Gee, that makes you're claim really believable!

Tim

Tim,

There are no hybrized morphs being sold as pure. Its all an illusion.

*end sarcasm*

Ok it was not in his first post, but early on he said he wasn't going to. Why are you attacking me? I gave you a list of all the ones I thought were hybrids and later agreed with you that some were in fact manmade crosses between subspecies. You called them intergrades, that is when the topic of what is an intergrade came up. I only responded to you why I thought calling something manmade was not really an intergrade.
You told me the kingsnake.com glossary and the Corn Snake Manual did not agree with me. I don't have the Cornsnake Manual so I only looked up the ks.com glossary and it agreed with me that a manmade intergrade should be distingushed from a natural one. You igonered that and keep hounding me about your issue with bluerosy, which I agreed with you on. You also did not answer my question about the root word of intergrade being gradual and how a single captive breeding can be gradual. If I am sounding hostile I apologize but you are not answering my questions just like bluerosy is not answering yours and I feel this has just become an arguement so I will stop asking about intergrade terminology.
I have enjoyed many of your posts about fieldherping in Las Vegas and will try to leave it on that positive note.

"Why are you attacking me?"

I'm not. The information you are providing is not accurate and I'm calling you out on it. I'm interested in getting to the truth.

"ks.com glossary and it agreed with me that a manmade intergrade should be distingushed from a natural one."

That's fine, but it has nothing to do with hybrids.

"You igonered that...."

Yes. Because it wasn't the point.

"...and keep hounding me about your issue..."

Yes. Because that IS the point.

"You also did not answer my question about the root word of intergrade being gradual.."

Yes I did. I said the meaning didn't matter - the application did. I then gave an example using "ghost" corns and ball pythons.

I also said that none of that's really the point, since I was using the pre-supplied defination of "hybrid" created by TonyD and posted by Bluerosy.

"but you are not answering my questions."

Yes I am. I answered them in previous posts and I am answering them again in this e-mail.

"I feel this has just become an arguement..."

No, it's not an arguement, but rather me trying to get an answer to a question that I asked days ago.

"I have enjoyed many of your posts about fieldherping in Las Vegas..."

I can't wait to go back there in June.

Tim

"Why are you attacking me?"

I'm not. The information you are providing is not accurate and I'm calling you out on it. I'm interested in getting to the truth.

>>Didn't I already admit I was was wrong to use the word hybrid for manmade intergrades?

"ks.com glossary and it agreed with me that a manmade intergrade should be distingushed from a natural one."

That's fine, but it has nothing to do with hybrids.

>>Correct but I already said you were right about the hybrid terminology. I thought we were discussing intergrade terminology and you had said mine and Tony's use of two different terms for manmade and natural intergrades was wrong.

"You igonered that...."

Yes. Because it wasn't the point.

>>It became the point of my discussion with you after I agreed you were correct on the hybrid terminology. I listed, among others Lavender and amel Brook's as being hybrids with Cal Kings. You said they were intergrades. I then said they were not really intergrades because intergrades are wild snakes that have merged gradually and that I thought they should be called specifically manmade intergades or subspecific crosses. I supported my point with ks.com's glossary and with the point that grade = gradual. You questioned my use of the word hybrid. I admitted I was wrong. It may not be what your original question was about but if you are going to question my terms I can certainly question yours.

"...and keep hounding me about your issue..."

Yes. Because that IS the point.

>> My full quote was "...and keep hounding me about your issue with blurosy." I considered it hounding because I already said you were right so you certainly don't need to tell me again and again.

"You also did not answer my question about the root word of intergrade being gradual.."

Yes I did. I said the meaning didn't matter - the application did. I then gave an example using "ghost" corns and ball pythons.

>> The question I asked was how can man duplicate thousands of years of wild intergradation with just one captive breeding. Corns and Ball Pythons had nothing to do with tha question.

I also said that none of that's really the point, since I was using the pre-supplied defination of "hybrid" created by TonyD and posted by Bluerosy.

>>Yes but you also used the word intergrade to describe floridana/brooksi X calkings so it became another point which I wanted to ask you about just as you had asked me about my use of the word hybrid.

"but you are not answering my questions."

Yes I am. I answered them in previous posts and I am answering them again in this e-mail.

>>You did give various examples of what you call intergrades but you did not really offer any supporting arguement as to why the term manmade intergrade or subspecific cross is not better or more acurate for manmade ones. Just saying it's a matter of application and you don't like my terms does nothing to refute my stance that the actual snakes themselves are different and therefore warrant different terms. I believe that since the scientific use of the word predates the herpetocultural use the scientific definition has precidence. Since the scientific definition applies to wild snakes that took thousands of years to become intergrades, to support calling both manmade and wild snakes by the single term of intergrade I believe you need to make a case that the manmade and wild intergraded snakes themselves are close enough to each other to warrant a single term which can be applied to both.

"I feel this has just become an arguement..."

No, it's not an arguement, but rather me trying to get an answer to a question that I asked days ago.

"I have enjoyed many of your posts about fieldherping in Las Vegas..."

I can't wait to go back there in June.

"Didn't I already admit I was was wrong to use the word hybrid for manmade intergrades?"

Yes, and then you made the comment "in his first post he said he wasn't going to" and while you said you were wrong about that too, at the time it was inaccurate information.

"I thought we were discussing intergrade terminology..."

I repeatedly stated that the ongoing topic of this thread is hybrids being passed off as "pure." You may have been discussing intergrade terminolgy, but I think I've made it clear that I'm looking to learn more about alleged HYBRIDS being sold as "pure."

"It became the point of my discussion with you after I agreed you were correct on the hybrid terminology."

Perhaps you thought that. Generally when a topic is different that the orginal, it's posted on a seperate thread, as it is a seperate idea.

"You said they were intergrades. I then said they were not really intergrades because intergrades are wild snakes that
have merged gradually and that I thought they should be called ..."

Still not hybrids, any way you slice it. As I've stated before, for purposes of this discussion, I was using the pre-supplied definitions by TonyD. I think those covered intergrades, man-made, etc. If you want to discuss that, it's cool, but it has nothing to do with this thread which is about hybrids, so perhaps a seperate post on that is warranted.

"keep hounding me about your issue with blurosy."

I don't have an issue with bluerosy. I just want him to answer a question. How is that "having an issue?"

"Corns and Ball Pythons had nothing to do with tha question."

The question I answered using corn snakes and ball pythons was referring to terms and how they have different applications depending on where they are used. I thought I made that pretty clear, as I posted it right under your statement "You also did not answer my question about the root word of intergrade being gradual..."

"Yes but you also used the word intergrade to describe floridana/brooksi X calkings so it became another point..."

They are intergrades, per TonyD's defintion, which is what we are using in this thread. Intergrades aren't the point. What I'm trying to learn is about HYBRIDS.

"You did give various examples of what you call intergrades but you did not really offer any supporting arguement as to why the term manmade intergrade or subspecific cross is not better or more acurate for manmade ones..."

Maybe because the topic of this thread is HYBRIDS.

"I believe you need to make a case that the manmade and wild intergraded snakes themselves are close enough to each other to warrant a single term which can be applied to both."

I'm not here to "make cases," I came to get an answer to a question I asked a few days ago.

Tim

Actually this thread is about can/should the original poster breed a calking to a zonata. In a secondary point bluerosy said many morphs are already hybrids. When you askied him to list them he refused and told you to do a search. So the topic was changed by you and bluerosy.

I tried to help you out by listing some hybrid morphs. You called me out and said they were really intergrades. I explained that I was in error by using the word hybrid loosely to include all manmade species and subspecies crosses and agreed that strictly speaking they were not hybrids.

Then I called you out and said if you really want to be specific those snakes I listed weren't intergrades either they were manmade intergrades, or crosses. You called me out over applying the word hybrid loosly then I called you out over applying the word intergrade loosly.

Actually I had alterior motives. I do not like the word intergade being used for manmade snakes. I realize many people do it and it has been generally accepted for a long time but I don't think it should be. The reason I think there should be a different word is 1)The snakes themselves are different. 2)Having a separate term would aid both purists and hybridizers.

By your calling me out on my improper use of the word hybrid I took that as a sign of someone who is intelligant and who likes specific terms. I thought I could win you over to the way of thinking that manmade and wild intergrades are distincly different from each other. Key to this acceptance is the use of a different term to describe the two. Myself, Tony D. and I'm sure a few others are proponents of this. Thanks to you pointing me towards the ks.com glossary, which I did not know was there, I now see that ks.com appears to be as well. I was merely trying to get you on board with this new way of thinking.

Let me explain a little more. I feel that the word intergrade was originally meant to describe wild snakes only. When someone uses the word intergrade for something manmade I feel it degrades the original meaning and allows hybridizers/crossers to confuse discussions by saying don't worry it's only an intergrade.

By your calling me out on my improper use of the word hybrid I took that as a sign of someone who is intelligant and who likes specific terms. I thought I could win you over to the way of thinking that manmade and wild intergrades are distincly different from each other. Key to this acceptance is the use of a different term to describe the two. Myself, Tony D. and I'm sure a few others are proponents of this. Thanks to you pointing me towards the ks.com glossary, which I did not know was there, I now see that ks.com appears to be as well. I was merely trying to get you on board with this new way of thinking.

Let me explain a little more. I feel that the word intergrade was originally meant to describe wild snakes only. When someone uses the word intergrade for something manmade I feel it degrades the original meaning and allows hybridizers/crossers to confuse discussions by saying don't worry it's only an intergrade.

I agree.

Well thought out post!

Thanks!

I agree. There's a difference between man-made and natural intergrades. One is man-made, one happens naturally.

Prefacing them with "man-made" or "natural" may help people who aren't familar with geography and the natural ranges of snakes.

Though whether man-made or not, an intergrade is not a hybrid.

Tim

AAAAAH, but that is where a dilemma sets in, as I believe Bluerosy showed you a pic way up of what could now be defined as both! I think he posted a pic of a wild caught gopher/calking hybrid that naturally occurs in their respective range. If these snakes can breed on their own, what would they be? I bet someone has done some stuff to calking/gophers to create a morph or two, then backbred, but that of course is speculation, and not really of any weight. Just a thought, but if I were in it for the money, I would have attempted all kinds of hybridizing to see if it was possible. A trip to the hybrid forum shows that a lot of things are possible. I like Aaron's descriptions for intergrades, as that is what I am into as well as locality w.c. snakes. I like seeing what they can do in nature and occasionally and hopefully digging up a "buried treasure"! Some day that albino grayband will surface, and I want to be there to stand up to the scrutiny! And, when can we get off this and back to the ORIGINAL posters question? I don't remember if any of you guys gave an opinion to his question! It has been a long thread, I am going out to see snakes!
Todd Hughes

I reckon that would be termed a "natural hybrid." I don't think there's much of a dilemma about that. Other hybrids have been found in the wild as well.

I don't have a comment about the ORIGINAL person's post because hybrids are my forte - I'll let other people handle that question. I just got involved in the thread because I was looking for an answer to a question.

Tim

Posted by: tspuckler at Thu Feb 22 13:45:29 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I don't have a comment about the ORIGINAL person's post because hybrids are my forte - I'll let other people handle that question. I just got involved in the thread because I was looking for an answer to a question.

..and did you really think your repetitive rude and threatening tone was going to be met with an answer? If you would have resourced a little I may have been able to guide you. Like I said from the beginning. I don't want to explain every hybrid morphs history once I post a list. I also have friends in the herp communty that would consider it rude for me to post name ect. You just kept coming with your "back it up" posts and I could really care less.

A lot of this could have been avoided- if you were truly looking for an answer, Instead your obstantious posts got what they deserved. But even if i posted the list you would had continued on.

Finally Todd (antelope) mentioned the wildcaught hybrid pic I posted. I posted the pic and asked.. "Define pure"

this was your response:

You STILL haven't answered my question. Maybe I'll do your definition (which I've already stated is relative) when you cough up the information on what hybrid sankes are on the market being offered as "pure."

I already told you 6 times at this point, no. Stated my reasons and gave you ways to find out yourself. You ignored those polite requests and continued asking when I kept saying no I already ansered your question. Thats pretty much sums up this 200 post thread.

"....your repetitive rude and threatening tone."

You were the only one being rude Rainer, I was rather polite the whole time, despite your rants and taunts.

"I don't want to explain every hybrid morphs history..."

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. I acknowledged that there have been naturally occuring hybrids. That has nothing to do you you explaining "every hybrid morphs history," and judging from the complete lack of information you've provided to back you up, I seriously doubt you know the history of ANY hybrid morph, based on your posts in this forum.

"A lot of this could have been avoided- if you were truly looking for an answer..."

I am truly looking for an answer - and you have not supplied it yet.

"Thats pretty much sums up this 200 post thread."

What sums up this 200 post thread is you apparently cannot answer a pretty simple question.

Tim

You were the only one being rude Rainer, I was rather polite the whole time, despite your rants and taunts.

I guess there is a really big difference in your perspective and reality.

Ya it was answered by me, bluerosy and maybe others early on. Me and bluerosy essentially said it's would be very hard and be very careful because based on our observations in the wild zonata avoid cals like the plague.
I once posted a long time ago on the hybrid forum if anone had done it and got no responses. I would be very interested to see offspring if it was accomplished and like to know if/how they had to trick them.
I like that coralsnake pic by the way.

I would look to the master for that, he once showed cal/thayeri pics, I bet he has dozens. Thanks.
Todd Hughes

Cool, sounds like we agree.

All this calling out, this is a forum for information transfer, and I'm pretty sure you guys are'nt going to fight so get over it. Sorry for being blunt.
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-J.Hill

Just verbal calling out. I would not do well in a fight, I'm built like a jellyfish! Anyways immeadiatly after we seem to have come to an agreement.

L. getula may be split up into at least two species, maybe three.

Splendida/nigrita/california would likely be one.
I'm not sure what the other two species would encompass.

At that point, the Cal/Florida would become hybrids by your definition.

The definition I've come to like -

Integrade is a natural occuring range of two subspecies or species that regularly mix. IE not too far north of me, California and Oregon alligator lizards have an integrade range.

Hybrid is something made by man or a freak (rare) mating that occurred in nature.

Those definitions are more solid IMHO because wether something is a hybrid or not does not depend upon the current taxonimist whims. If it happened in nature where two forms regularly breed, it is an integrade. Otherwise, it is a hybrid. That's how I (now) am using the term.

If I breed my "pure" MBK with a "pure" Cal King, it is a hybrid.
If I collect one that happened naturally in the integrade zone locality where they regularly mate - it is an integrade.

Does that make sense?
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3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

This is starting to turn into another numbskull opinion fest.
You could be the next Peter Jolles. LOL!
-Phil

Oh gosh. Did you see that on the other forum. I feel bad for Peter. Thats why I am thankful for KS TOS and mods.

I agree Rainer. Semper I. Idiots rule!
-Phil

for whatever its worth i think im #2 on the blackballed list ahahahahahaha,,,,,,
thomas davis

That thread was hilarious.
People defending Peter blacklisting the OP because he felt like it got played big time by him over the same thing and didn't even realize they were being toyed with.
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3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

In Rainers defense I will tell you this. When a few of us brought some suspicion to this forum concerning some morphs and their origins it erupted into a bunch of nonsense revolving around he said she said type of stuff. We only wanted to see if anyone would come forward and say "yes, I do know for a fact that guy worked with both this snake and that snake" to see if any of our suspicion could be verified. Instead we were attacked and harrassed even though we made some very valid points.

Keep in mind one of these breeders has passed away, and some people still speak very harshly about him which is much more disrespectful than trying to catch someone pulling a fast one creating hybrids and passing them off as pure. One reason I'd rather not get into it again.

I have also seen some of Rainers pics of snakes you'd swear were pure than were indeed Hybrids.... I did not read this entire post,,,I have read way too many like it. I am all for proper representation and do like Hybrids....but I have said for a long time now breeding two different snakes together because you simply have a male of one type and female of another is a waste of two good snakes. It in my opinion is much better to breed two hybrids instead, as usually the results create better looking and more obvious hybrids. I think if more people would go about projects like that...there's be less animosity over it. Hopefully you will see this before the post gets deleted...most debates like this usually do. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Thanks Tom. I'm just here looking for the facts. Even if they're hard to accept, I want to know what they are. As others have pointed out, I've asked repeatedly for additional information on a topic I did not know anything about (breeders alledgedly introducing hybrids into the market and calling them pure).

What I think of hybrids doesn't matter much - I just want people to back up their information. I think it's wrong to the newer people to be mislead by information that isn't based in fact. That's why when I see something out of the ordinary, I ask. I'm always learning new things about reptiles. But to insure what I'm learning is true, I need some backup information to support those ideas.

Bluerosy said "many" snakes are being marketed as pure but are actually hybrids. I have yet to see anything to back this up. The animals listed were all the sames species (with the exception of white-sided Brooks, and who'd ever work with them?*)

So there may be many morphs derived from intergrades, but I have yet to hear about the many snakes on the market that are said to be "pure" but are actually hybrids.

Tim

*I was just kidding about the Brooks, I know you work with them.

.
-----
TomsSnakes.com

no longer truly represents the species.
They are produced by selective breeding, not natural selection.

The only "pure" snakes are in the wild.

Now you can breed a locality and call it a locality and be honest, but it still is the product of selective breeding from a limited gene pool and therefore is already diverging from the locality.

You want to preserve hondurans - preserve them in the wild, so they can remain until natural selection evolves them into something else.

You want a captive honduran that can have its ancestry traced back to honduran wild caught - then buy such an animal from a reputable dealer.

If 3% of its genetics are borrowed from Cal King - then somewhere along the line a dealer was less than honest. But if you don't know and can't tell, does it really matter? Your honduran will never be used to restore the species in the wild, I guarantee it.
-----
3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Not true. Hybrids have been found in the wild. The topic of this discussion is what hybrids are currently on the market being sold as "pure." Hybrid is not a relative term, "pure" is.

Tim

Define pure.
Photo coutesy of J.P.
http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={24EA7D45-3DFF-4FC3-B141-844B2DB5EB71}&exp=f&moddt=38670.9962216435&ssdyn=1

I already asked you this question on this thread and this was your answer:

You STILL haven't answered my question. Maybe I'll do your definition (which I've already stated is relative) when you cough up the information on what hybrid sankes are on the market being offered as "pure."

Tim

Here is a good list that TonyD posted here a while back:

Hybrid - prodigy from captive breedings that cross species or generic lines. Example: Jungle corns.

A further note on locality specific is that "locality" has not been given a definition that is widely accepted either. The current, and in my opinion, arbitrary usage of political borders undermines the concept and habitat or geographical features that contribute to population distinctiveness might be better delineators. As an example, instead of Ocean and Burlingtom County NJ coastal plains milk snakes being two distinct localities they would fall under a single (NJ pine barrens) locality which would more accurately reflect natural distribution.

Just because Tony D posted it doesn't make it Gospel. The Glossary on this website disagrees with it, as does The Corn Snake Manual. You still haven't answered my question.

Tim

Hybrid - prodigy from captive breedings that cross species or generic lines. Example: Jungle corns.

And the examples provided:

Lavender and amel floridana and brooksi (came from Cal Kings).
Whiteside Brook's (came from ratsnakes).
Hypo Pueblans (came from Hondurans).
Amel Eastern Chain Kings (came from amel Eastern Black Kings).

You don't have hybrids according to Tony D, with the exception of white-sided Brook's.

Cal kings, Brook's and Florida kings are all the same species.
Pueblans and Hondurans are the same species.
Chain kings and black kings are the same species.

The resulting offspring would not be hybrids (according to Tony D's definition). You stated there are "many" morphs being marketed as "pure" which are actually hybrids. So far you haven't made a very strong arguement for your case.

Tim

Tom you are correct, at least until someone decides to risk making public accusations about certain breeders and get themselves banned... or until you do some independant research.

Anyways I believe in the contex bluerosy used here (and the one I used for my short list) we were refering to all manmade intergrades, crosses and hybrids. Bluerosy may have more examples he is not giving of true hybrids but I think even if he doesn't the point is the same: many morphs out there were created with deception and that deception has become entrenced to the point that many untruths are unkowingly and widely accepted as true.

Maybe you are one of those who thinks manmade intergrades are ok but manmade hybrids are not. Personally I don't like either although I try not to disparge anyone who does and who also attempts to represent them honestly. I only like locality snakes and if those are not obtainable I accept classic looking subspecies that appear to come from within the range of pure, wild subspecies. That is why I tend to lump manmade intergrades in with hybrids when speaking informally. Something that was obviously a mistake on my part.

You want a captive honduran that can have its ancestry traced back to honduran wild caught - then buy such an animal from a reputable dealer.

Even the amel hondurans imported from germany were supposed intergrades and not pure hondurnesis. I think Shannon Brown who normally posts on the milksnake forum came over here to this forum about 3 weeks ago said something about that.

An integrade isn't a hybrid (according to Tony D's definition). You still haven't answered my question.

You stated: "I hate to break it to you but a lot of morphs in the colubrid market that are consider pure are actually derived from hybrids. "

Well what are they?

Tim

"You know I’m not going to knock hybrids. I am curious if you are just seeing what you get or do you have a result in mind that you are working towards realizing through hybrids? I suppose it could be both, and if something really cool shows up you could refine it, duplicate it and all that.
For example could you desire a red and white chain king type replacing the black with red and “borrow” the red from a Nelson or something and hope to realize it by hybrids or whatever it takes to get there. I am wondering if there is something you are specifically hoping to produce from selecting which snakes to work with? "

I think a lot of the known hybrizers of colubrids that want to produce hybrids (not fake morphs) are looking to produce a snake that is more domesticated and looks great. I hate to use that term but a snake that eats better, is not nervous, grows to a managable length and has large babies. A perfect pet snake. As an example. a few have gotten out of the rutheni-pyro-greeri-thayeri-alterna-blairs type crosses and are focussing on pueblin-corn-cali crosses. The former has genes that create smaller snakes that are not great feeders ect (*see below pic). You will see more of the latter in the next two years. Current breeders who are actually producing new hybrids 9not working with F2s-F4's) are looking past that and are trying to include other mild tempered larger species for tommorows market.

*PGRABS-PGRAHA (pyro-greeri-rutheni-alterna--blairs-sinalon crossed with a pyro-greeri-rutheni-alterna-holbrooki-alterna)

"Another thing, since Hondurans are so spastic, is there a possibility to create a Honduran with a Brooks type personality? Are the different behaviors something that could be refined as well?"

Just like any clutch of snakes you get a range of colors from light to dark the same goes for behaviors of hybrids. You will get some spastic hodo x floridas and you will get some that resemble the florida kings.

The difference between you and me is I make this suit look good.
- MIB

(sorry - I know I'm late to thread - couldn't resist that one though)
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3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Nice to see your back Jack! LOL!
-Phil

I highly agree with you Doug!! I could not have said it better myself.
As hybridization grows ( if it is ? ) , our hobby slowly dies. Just my opinion.
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Genesis 1:1

As hybridization grows ( if it is ? ) , our hobby slowly dies.

Who says its YOUR hobby? LOL! What is YOUR hobby?

Actually..read it slower. I said " our " hobby, not " my " hobby.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Posted by: DISCERN at Fri Feb 16 19:02:25 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Actually..read it slower. I said " our " hobby, not " my " hobby.

Thats good because I am glad that "our" hobby is in no danger.

" Thats good because I am glad that "our" hobby is in no danger."

Well actually, if you read Doug's post, I was agreeing with what he said about our hobby being in danger in regards to existing hybrids.

Later!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

I think people working to ban reptiles is more of a threat than hybridization. We should be just trying to guide people when it comes to hybrids, and spending more time addressing bills and stuff.
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-J.Hill

Those are some good thoughts!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Hey, I actually do believe some of those pure strains are boring! That being said, I am actually against putting any two snakes together because you don’t have like pairs or just to see what happens, etc. Totally against random breeding. Even on the Hybrid Forum you get posts about mixing things just for the sake of “can this be done”, and I think it’s seen as somewhat juvenile and not taken very seriously. I think there is a big difference when you are talking about specific projects that are refining a designer creation and borrowing a trait from another line to get there. In that example you are usually talking about trying to produce something that does not exist and couldn’t be mistaken for anything else. I don’t see any problem in those working on that type project. The problem is what to do with those extra crosses that are close enough to one parent or the other that could possibly be misrepresented. I’m inclined to cull them, or find somebody else interested in the same project you could share them with. (funny, I just brought this up yesterday, I think) I would be very against letting those get out into the market place just out of respect for the fears expressed by some of the purist fanatics. I think a lot of those fears are over blown, or maybe those people are less than careful about where they acquire their breeding stock and want others to be responsible for the choices they make.

Even on the Hybrid Forum you get posts about mixing things just for the sake of “can this be done”, and I think it’s seen as somewhat juvenile and not taken very seriously

But it is not taken seriously by real hybridizers because it sound a lot easier than it sounds. Whenver someone post something like that I have to chuckle because it is really hard to get most of those different sp to breed. Unless it is a corn x king (jungle) or ratsnake x ratsnake (its been done to death) it is really hard tricking most snakes to breed. Take for example the honduran x florida king (jurassic). You need lots of females and males to make this happen. Most people with a pair of different snakes just don't know any better.

Right now we are seeing a lot of the Ball python breeder inject blood pythons into the mix and they go for top dollar. Same with carpondros ect.

I guess even those Ball python mutations are getting boring! Hybrid prices should reflect the effort put into their creation as stated- there’s nothing lazy or short cut involved in them. It’s a lot of very cutting edge dedicated mastery of snake breeding that goes way beyond inbreeding some locale. This isn’t the forum to discuss it, but I do think it’s the future of the hobby. Certainly not the ruin of it.

Not to change the subject. It's VERY interesting no matter how many times it shows up here. But could you please repost that feeding/care schedule page again?..I can't seem to find it anywhere on my computer I KNOW it there somewhere, but it's easier on the "old walnut" just to beg you for it. Thanks
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

Wow I had to find it, then check out the Tools and Toys section to figure out how to link to it. Hope you find it useful, I can’t wait to fill in those “Post brumation shed” dates!
Link to recordkeeping .PDF

Heck it was EASY to get to on my end..LOL..sorry for the hassel you went through..I thank you and my snakes thank you also.
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

Every month there are newbies on here asking "what is this snake? It was sold to me as such and such..." and it turns out to be an obvious hybrid. Don't get me wrong I am not against hybrids but I am against the notion that purists are fanatics or somehow unjustified for continually making people aware of the current state of affairs regarding hybrids. That is because hybrids are continually popping up where they are not wanted. How is somebody new to this hobby supposed to even be aware of asking about records and backrounds if it is taboo to speak about how hybrids have crept into much of the captive stock of today. There seems to be much more awareness nowadays about the importance of record keeping to maintain pure lines but that awareness was created by "fanatical purists". It is also undeniable that many subspecies such as Mexican kings and milks are virtually lost to the hobby and likely never to return in original form due to irresponsible hybridizing combined with past a lack of awareness and vocalization on the part of purists.
When we see what has happened with some of these no longer imported species it it no wonder to me that some purists tend to "overreact".

I do see your point. I happen to want to work with Brooks that are not amelanistic. I have found it can be hard to find Brooks that have the other traits I want that also do not have some amelanistic somewhere in the mix. These aren’t even hybrids, but the tendency is to take every trait and combine it with every other trait. I can see that it might be hard to find an actual plain ol’ normal het for nothing Brooks someday. Thanks to those dedicated purists, they will always be there. Those projects are not to be slighted either. I’m old timer enough to remember when getting a Mexican milk or some of these very common things were pretty exotic and basically never seen for any price, so I think we are a little spoiled with access to anything you desire. With the hybrids, it’s now a matter of anything you can imagine. Remember, these things were believed to be impossible or sterile, etc not that long ago so it has become a whole new area of curiosity. I just see it as the hobby exploring to the extreme of possibility, which is to be expected. Ideally, captive snakes should have absolutely nothing to do with what’s in the woods.

Who wants Mexican milks? I will have Jim Wells county het for nuthin Mexmilks this year! And they will be sold with a typed and signed pedigree, as will all my snakes, stating locale and capture dates of the parents. The morphs I breed will tell who I got them from and what they were represented to me by the seller. Can't help you on the true Mexican kings but will have some cool Thayeri as well! I now play both sides of the coin but am above all a raging purist, lol!
Todd Hughes

Mexican Milk was the first truly “exotic” tri-color snake I ever saw at a pet shop. This was before Hondurans were even known to me. I remember thinking it was the ultimate giant Scarlet King! At the time I thought it was the most beautiful snake I had ever seen. To this day I think they are underrated ideal beginner snakes and a shame they get passed over for Pueblans, Hondurans, Sinaloans and now I guess you can add the Corndurans, etc. I’m glad you are maintaining a pure line but I don’t see them ever getting the attention of a “plain old” albino Hondo. Too bad, they are a much “nicer” snake.

Hey dude,.what pet store did you see it at "Dealy's"!!!LOL.man, I remember so many cool things there in the 70's it literally made me drool!!LOL...I bought a baby "retic" there when they were virtually unseen anywhere, I thought it was the coolest thing on the planet thinking it could get upwards of thirty feet!!that owner "Barry" even had a "Ceylonese" Python,... I'll never forget that... it was a "true" (Python molurus pimbura) I guess they were totally legal back then(maybe not though!!LOL) I remember having books and knowing the difference even back then! That thing was a monster to you and I back then, I can still remember the label on the cage, it was 12 ft. long, and super fat. I remember staring at it thinking about how I would go about grabbing that big thing!!....me and Paul Stone would always see how much money we had to see what we could walk out of there with!!!LOL,...what great memories huh??..........Doug

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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Hey Doug. Actually it wasnt Dealy's-suprise. It was a no name place I don't even remember, but the snake was unforgettable. You know the way the internet works, eventually Barry or others from the old neighborhood are going to find our discussion and we will be tripping on those memories. We're talking about 1970 or so, can you believe it? I remember drooling over the anaconda there as a kid! I also remember a four foot retic that was brilliantly colored- probably the one you got! Hey if you have not been around here in a few years the Dealys building is still there, and it looks sooo small you might not believe it! There's a Home Depot where the car circus car lot used to be (with the giant clown) and they took Dans subs too. Excuse us everybody, I know nobody else knows what the heck I'm talking about! If anybody knows Dealys Exotic Aquarium from Ft. Lauderdale "back in the day", you know it was quite a cool little reptile shop.

ehhh, you do what you can! I don't expect to retire on my "hobby" but I think I will maintain locale animals for sale as well as feeder/scenting lizards. Also may dabble in cage design. I am a few years from retirement, lol, so my main job will still be doable for a few more years. If I can pay my rodent bill it's all good!
Todd Hughes

That's cool. I may have misread your post but it's all cool with me.
I plan to do my best to keep my alterna, greeri and knoblochi which I have and believe to be pure going as long as I can. Have a good day.

I would'nt but that is just me. I would'nt say I'm against hybridizing but I'm definately not for it. I think it would be more worth your while to look for a breeding age snake of the right sex/specie for each of your snakes. I think that all snakes should be honestly represented either way you go with it. Like other people have said in this thread about some hybrids being worth alot of money, don't expect it to be so with many colubrids. Unless of course you manage to breed a ball python to a kingsnake or something totally weird like that. Just my .02 anyways.
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-J.Hill