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Kelly I have a question

rottenweiler9 Feb 17, 2007 06:52 AM

Below you had posted somthing about the ambient temps being good but making the floor temps to high. I know exactly what you are saying. I use a temp gun and radient heat panels. The heat panels are at 85 degrees and that makes the floor temp 90. I guess I am asking is this OK, because its the floor temps that matter? Because when I put the heat panels at 90 degrees the floor temp gets to upper 90's and 100, and the snake never went over there.

Thank you

Jeff
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0.2 Rotts
1.0 Super Tiger
1.0 Amel Retic
0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Red Tail
0.1 Blood Python
1.0 Green Ananconda
1.0 Emerald Tree Boa

Replies (9)

Carmichael Feb 17, 2007 10:42 AM

I'm sure Kelly will chime in here but here's my thoughts (having used radiant heat panels for over 15 years):
- Floor temps AND ambient temps are critical components that are not exclusive to each other; they go hand in hand.
- The temps directly under the heat panel, including the floor that the burm rests on, can be relatively high (even in the 95-100 range) AS LONG AS THE SNAKE can move to a cooler area where the temps drop to around 78-82 deg F during the day (I try to keep fairly stable temps day and night with my burms). My burms prefer temps in the 82-86 degree range (based on regular temp/coil readings), however, they do bask regularly, usually for short periods of time, under the warm heat panels. If you burm comes down with R.I. you will notice that they will spend far more time under the warmest areas and this is what you want to see (not the snake getting sick, but a warm place where the snake can heat up which helps it fight infection).
- Heat gradients are only effective if you also have optimal ambient humidity levels (80-88% is optimal)....fresh air flow is very important too.

Hope this helps.
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Below you had posted somthing about the ambient temps being good but making the floor temps to high. I know exactly what you are saying. I use a temp gun and radient heat panels. The heat panels are at 85 degrees and that makes the floor temp 90. I guess I am asking is this OK, because its the floor temps that matter? Because when I put the heat panels at 90 degrees the floor temp gets to upper 90's and 100, and the snake never went over there.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>Jeff
>>-----
>>0.2 Rotts
>>1.0 Super Tiger
>>1.0 Amel Retic
>>0.1 Ball Python
>>0.1 Red Tail
>>0.1 Blood Python
>>1.0 Green Ananconda
>>1.0 Emerald Tree Boa
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

rottenweiler9 Feb 17, 2007 12:10 PM

No by all means chime in. I just refered to Kelly because of his post. Ya my Retic got RI when my power blew out my thermastat and I walked downstairs and thought nothing of him under the lights and then a day later I measured the temps and saw what had happened. And I thought maybe the temp was to high. The air temp was 90 but the ground was upper 90s and that sounds like that is where it should be for now, since he has it. I am going to take him to the vet this week. I do not need another one of my guys to pass away. This IL winter is hard this year.
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0.2 Rotts
1.0 Super Tiger
1.0 Amel Retic
0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Red Tail
0.1 Blood Python
1.0 Green Ananconda
1.0 Emerald Tree Boa

Carmichael Feb 17, 2007 02:15 PM

I know the challenges having lived in Chicago nearly all of my life. We are constantly tweeking all of our heating devices and thermostats during the winter; it's a daily battle but having good equipment and good thermostats (I highly recommend Spyder Robotics) takes a lot of the stress and guessing game out of the equation. If your retic is battling R.I. you definitely want to maintain a 24/7 warm area and try to keep a higher than average warm area even on the cool end (I wouldn't let temps drop too much below 80-82 deg F on the cool side). Crank the misting and humidity and you should see improvement unless the RI is well advanced (in which case a trip to the vet and a few rounds of antibiotics should work....we've been using Fortaz with excellent results). Kelly lives in the cold weather belt so perhaps he can give you some of his tips.

>>No by all means chime in. I just refered to Kelly because of his post. Ya my Retic got RI when my power blew out my thermastat and I walked downstairs and thought nothing of him under the lights and then a day later I measured the temps and saw what had happened. And I thought maybe the temp was to high. The air temp was 90 but the ground was upper 90s and that sounds like that is where it should be for now, since he has it. I am going to take him to the vet this week. I do not need another one of my guys to pass away. This IL winter is hard this year.
>>-----
>>0.2 Rotts
>>1.0 Super Tiger
>>1.0 Amel Retic
>>0.1 Ball Python
>>0.1 Red Tail
>>0.1 Blood Python
>>1.0 Green Ananconda
>>1.0 Emerald Tree Boa
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

rottenweiler9 Feb 17, 2007 02:59 PM

Thank you for the help. I was thinking the temps when I had the warm side of my heat panels at 85 degrees and the ground at 90 was perfect, because before I had the heat panels at 90 degrees and the floor was upper 90s and 100 (Sounds like that was perfect). I may have to make some adjustments in my other cages now to try for both instead of just ground temps being perfect, I have to get the air up. Thank you again.
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0.2 Rotts
1.0 Super Tiger
1.0 Amel Retic
0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Red Tail
0.1 Blood Python
1.0 Green Ananconda
1.0 Emerald Tree Boa

Kelly_Haller Feb 17, 2007 08:33 PM

Rob made some excellent points and I definitely agree with his comments. As he said, try to balance the ambient and substrate temps across the gradient. Under standard conditions, for burmese, bloods, retics, etc., I also try for a substrate gradient temp across the cage of from low 80's cool end to low 90's warm side. His other critical point was on humidity. This turns into more of a juggling act when you start raising temps to assist RI treatment, especially with low room humidity in the winter. Warm cage interiors rapidly drive humidity out into the low humidity room.

Because the amount of water vapor the air can hold increases rapidly with temperature, the relative humidity actually decreases with increasing temperature, unless the evaporation potential can be met. This means that unless the rate of evaporation can keep up with the demand for moisture brought on by the rising air temperature, there will be an increasing net loss in relative humidity. A water bowl has one of the slowest rates of evaporation of almost any setup, as the surface tension of the water inhibits rapid evaporation. Cages with temps in the 80’s range usually do not have huge problems with humidity. However, when raising cage temps into the 90’s, the rate of evaporation from a water bowl alone will never reach anywhere near its potential, and the humidity within the cage can easily drop below 50%. Frequent misting, wick system substrates, or evaporation dishes with saturated cloth, paper towel, or aspen shavings have more rapid evaporation potentials and will produce much higher humidity levels than even a large water bowl alone.

I always end up battling low humidity levels in the winter, especially with the blood pythons. I really believe that as many winter RI episodes with boids are caused by low humidity, as are caused by low cage temps. When raising the temps for RI treatment, make sure to closely monitor the humidity, and as Rob stated, try to maintain the percentage in the 80’s range. Sometimes, the appearance of initial RI symptoms are caused by lung irritation due to low humidity, and many times can be resolved before progressing into an actual RI by raising the cage humidity. However, observe closely so the appropriate action can be taken if the problem progresses. Let us know how things turn out.

Kelly

burmmania Feb 18, 2007 09:01 AM

excellent informational post - thanks even though it wasnt directed towards me!
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-Sam the Man

rottenweiler9 Feb 18, 2007 12:32 PM

Even if you do not know what you are saying. Hahahhaha, just kidding I had to throw that in there based on the past poster.

This has help me understand far better than any book that I read has. I was begining to drive myself crazy and constently adjusting things, and not know what I was doing. Temps to high, to low, humidity is always around 60% but I will get that raised. Thank you again for your help Rob and Kelly.

Jeff
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0.2 Rotts
1.0 Super Tiger
1.0 Amel Retic
0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Red Tail
0.1 Blood Python
1.0 Green Ananconda
1.0 Emerald Tree Boa

Kelly_Haller Feb 18, 2007 03:50 PM

You know by now that I can BS with the best of them. Thanks again.

On the humidity issue, I don't know how many blood pythons I have seen that showed apparent symptoms of initial RI that were being maintained at adequate temp gradients from the mid 80's to low 90's. It was just lung irritation due to extremely low humidity, and resolved when the humidity was significantly increased.

Kelly

rottenweiler9 Feb 18, 2007 05:08 PM

I appreciate the advise. As stated above now I know what I have to do. I was starting to drive myself crazy.

Thank you again

Jeff
-----
0.2 Rotts
1.0 Super Tiger
1.0 Amel Retic
0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Red Tail
0.1 Blood Python
1.0 Green Ananconda
1.0 Emerald Tree Boa

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