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This was sold at the Manassas show this past weekend as an MBK and was marked as such on the deli cup. The seller who breed them said that te parents where jet black and that the babies may or may not loose all of the speckling when they reached adulthood. This person is a pretty well known breeder that I have seen on this site posting/advertising so why would he do this? I've read good things on the BOI before about him. All the MBK babies I've seen where all jet black from the get go. This has to be splendida.

Well, it can be argued they are the same snake I suppose, but normally L.nigrita are much more black overall from hatching (after many years of selective breeding) and that one looks more like a L.splendida for sure...
That said, I have had all black snakes throw the occasional "patterned" baby, though not quite as much as yours.(when they do, I usually sell those breeders off)
I have friends that also had black kings that produced some much like yours. So, I guess it is possible the seller had completely black adults that produced that snake.
It all goes back to the founding stock I suppose and maybe there were some with more splendida looks in there...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

...the g. in L.g.nigrita and L.g.splendida huh???
oops. Anyway, you got he gist of my point I think.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

some mbk babies come out like that i had 4 last year exactley the same. they looked exactly like blackheaded splendida. but were from solid black parents. ill see if i can dig up the pics of the one i kept
adam
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hybrid breeders association
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.3 ghost corns
1.0 snow corns
1.0 albino corns
1.0 jurassic milk
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 childrens python
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery

I would not go post anything against anybody on any forum unless you are absolutely sure you've been had or wronged. That can actually hurt people's reputation. Very nice looking kingsnake whatever it may be. Derek

I agree. Thats why I have not stated who the breeder is. I will wait and see if the coloring changes first.

First, There is nowhere that MBkings occur pure. They are a phase of L.g.splendida. That is, in parts of L.g.splendidas range, there are also black ones. In some parts of the range, the percentage is fairly high. From someone who has caught the dang things(me) that, patterned juvinile occurs normally.

Its very much the same as Stripe and banded calkings found in the San Diego area. Or many of the other areas were two or more color phases occur, Medona, LAx etc. Those areas have normal cal kings and black types too.

Next, in most cases, breeders sell pure black babies for a higher price then their patterned siblings. So, did you pay a lower price for a patterned MBK and now are complaining about it? Tell the true. In otherwords, why did you hand over money for that snake at the show, if it was not all black then?

I am not trying to attack you or defend the breeder, but there is ALWAYS many sides to the story.

The truth is, some of those babies stay patterned and thats the risk you have to take. Thats why patterned babies are sold for less.

Common sense tells me, if you really wanted a pure black king, then you should have bought a pure black king, not one with pattern.

Not that this is the case here, but reptile shows for full up with misrepresented reptiles. Let the buyer beware. Cheers

LOL. I was waiting for someone to ask just that and was wondering why no one had. I only paid 35$ wich is not a lot to pay for any king snake really. My step daughter who is 8 yrs old wanted her first snake and she liked the "sparkley one" that we ended up buying. I was talking to the breeder about his OBK's and easterns that he did not bring with him and got on the subject of the snake my daughter wanted.

I had no idea MBK's could start out like this but it doesn't surprise me since many babies dont look like the adults they will become. I wasn't making an investment in a future breeder just a pet to get my daughter interested in the hobby.

As far as misrepresentation at shows you are right. There was one gentlemen that claimed to have the "original line" of okeetee corns that he himself collected in the 1970's but could not look at me when I asked him if he knew of the Abbott line okeetees. He just said he never heard of anyone named Abbott.

Um... if you don't have all the info on something, why not look it up or investigate it?? For instance the Abbott line of Okeetee's is not the original line, rather it originated from someone else's stock bred into the Love line. The Okeetee's are just nice looking snakes from a certain area and not a morph so you are right to mock the guy saying he caught the first one. I have also seen snakes sold as "het for Abbott" but i don't know how that can happen. But asking him if he knows Lee Abbott doesn't mean anything.

Likewise, why not investigate the king you have first before posting and possibly getting someone who doesn't know any better thinking a vendor is wronging you. I have a idea of who you purchased this snake from and others may have a guess, and if some other people hadn't pointed it out already this could have turned bad for the vendor for no reason. Check your facts first.

Jason

She (he?) is gorgeous.
My little brother got his first snake, an Okeetee, at the Sac show in September. His Okeetee is now pounding fuzzies and has already lost a lot of its neonate colour. It was an excellent choice first snake for him. He chose it - I was prepared to let him choose any corn at the table, he wanted an Okeetee - and I agree with him, it was the best looking snake
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3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Good looking snake. I never said that the Abbott line was the original line. I know that it is not. I was making conversation with the man after he came up to me with his sales pitch about how his Okee's where from the "original line" of okee's that he himself collected back in the 1970's and that his are the "true ones". I was telling him about my Abbotts at wich point he was no longer very direct in his conversation. He became evasive and would not look at me when talking or answering any questions I had about his okee's. It's just the fact that when he said he had never heard of Abbott line Okee's combineed with everything else it begins to look a little suspect. It's hard to imagine that someone has been dealing with okee's for over 30 years, selling them at shows, wich means you have talked to tons of people about your stock, and never once heard of the Abbott line?

Any research that I may have done on the splendida/nigrita issue would not have resolved anything. I am getting so much conflicting info on it. A lot of people here are saying that yo can get both from the same clutch and that they are different color phases of the same species. Some are saying (by email) that if you get both then technically they are hybrids. I don't know what to believe. Everyone is telling me what is what based on there experience. Where else can you go to do your own research on this? Is there any hard imperical data anywhere? If someone breeds 2 solid black MBK's and gets 50/50 hatch results with splendida then they will tend to believe that they are one and the same. Cold possiblly be that there where splendida genes mxed in with the MBK parents (people always breed siblings)and this is how the 50/50 split happened.

I am not accussing the breeder of anything. I have read about his good reputation and mentioned that in my first post and in several replies since then.

>>Some are saying (by email) that if you get both then technically they are hybrids.

If they were hybrids you would get a combination of both species/ssp., NOT clearly patterned ones of both. Both Klauber and Tanzer used this concept to prove polymorphism in Cali Kings and alterna respectively. It's because Klauber's work that both the striped and banded Cali King forms are now known as the same ssp., and Tanzer's paper used the same concept to show that alterna and blairi were pattern variants of alterna. What's seen in clutches of MBKs producing clear splendida hatchlings shows their close relationship, and proves (using Klauber's concept) that they are the same ssp.
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Ace

so what you are saying is that this is the same thng that is seen in black rat snakes. In Virginia they get almost solid black but further west the retain a lot of their patterning. They have a different look but are the same animal.

>>so what you are saying is that this is the same thng that is seen in black rat snakes. In Virginia they get almost solid black but further west the retain a lot of their patterning. They have a different look but are the same animal.

I'm not very well versed in the Ratsnakes, but yea, that sounds like pretty much the same thing.
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Ace

That's what I'm saying, count me in as beliving mbk and splendida are one and the same. Some speckled kings are screamin yellow, others are cream. Your black rats get so patterned out west, they turn into Texas rats! Remember, just my opinion!
Todd Hughes

That is regional variation or a cline in pattern through out the range. What we are talking about is polymorphism in one population. Like striped and banded kings, as already mentioned. Cheers

The hard infomation is from nature, go to ortiz and catch your own, then you will know. Or you can catch them along the mex/ariz border and find one black one for every 25 or so normals. In ortiz is about even.

The rest have information from reptiles many generations in captivity, which renders it meaningless as far as what the animal really IS. Oh yea, I have caught them recently and back when they were established. Cheers

Thanks Frank, I knew I could count on you! How are the gophers? I see you are having really good weather now, the Texas corals are on the march, seen 3 in 2 days down in south Texas.
Todd Hughes

thank you.

nice sockhead splendida/congrats!!

>>This was sold at the Manassas show this past weekend as an MBK and was marked as such on the deli cup. The seller who breed them said that te parents where jet black and that the babies may or may not loose all of the speckling when they reached adulthood.

Actually, I traded away 2 of my hatchling Cali Kings for an MBK like that. I was told by the breeder that this one (pic below) came from 2 solid black parents, and a 50-50 clutch of solid black and splendida hatchlings. I did see its clutch mates that were "classic" MBKs, but I chose her because I personally wanted to see a splendida turn into an MBK!! It's because of these anomalies that many think MBKs and splendida are the same ssp.

My splendida looking MBK........

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Ace

then you have a sibling of mine. The breeder definitly seemed like a real good guy and from what I'm hearing it seems as though I have a splendida looking MBK hatchling that should turn black!! I never new this to be the case. This is why I didn't name the breeder but as soon as I'm convinced that mine is MBK he will get a public thumbs up from me!!

>>then you have a sibling of mine.

I doubt they're siblings. Mine's from a local Pa. Reptile shop that does some of their own breeding, mostly corns, and doubt they'd be at the Manassas show, or be "big" enough to make it to the BOI. When I got her from them, they told me that they get a pretty much 50/50 clutch from this pair every year.
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Ace

I misunderstood you then. I thought you got it at the Manassas show.

I think they are the same subspecies.
I've also heard the jet black nigritas are not as common in the wild as they are in the pet trade. Not that they are rare in the wild, just that the pet trade selectively breeds for patternless, so that's what people who do not encounter them in the wild tend to think of when they hear MBK.

I've also heard the MBK X Nitida hybrid produces very splendida looking hatchlings, which is interesting, because MBK cross (non nitida/conjuncta) Cal Kings produces fugly looking snakes.

What does the underside of its chin look like?
Not that it is an identifying feature, I'm just curious - a lot of nigritas have what I call a "soul patch".

Here's a young nigrita I have that has just a little bit of pattern (and less than when I bought her about 7 weeks ago):

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3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Well, I guess either way it looks very nice. You might just have to wait it out and see. If it does, then I guess thats pretty neat. Cool snake either way.
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-J.Hill

>>This was sold at the Manassas show this past weekend as an MBK and was marked as such on the deli cup. The seller who breed them said that te parents where jet black and that the babies may or may not loose all of the speckling when they reached adulthood. This person is a pretty well known breeder that I have seen on this site posting/advertising so why would he do this? I've read good things on the BOI before about him. All the MBK babies I've seen where all jet black from the get go. This has to be splendida.
>>

This is funny on to many levels.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions!!!!! Why the heck do you think there is argument over splendida and nigrita being color variations of the same subspecies??? Just wait till more postings come in. Retes, where are you?????
Pat

Definitely looks like a splendida to me.

reako45

May sound strange but a guy I know from another forum posted pics of a true wild baby MBK he found far down in Mexico and it had a full on splendida pattern. A couple adults he found nearby were solid black except for a little bit of speckling.

Although at first glance, it certainly does appear to be a splendida", many pure "nigritus" start out as looking like the one you have, gradually turning solid black as they get older. I have many books that also mention this. Also, "splendida" attains a MUCH larger size as an adult than does "nigritus", with meristics being different as well. These are two totally different snakes, although they both naturally intergrade with other species in there natural ranges, and with each other(splendida/nigritus). But I think you will find that this one will probably darken into a nice looking black example of a fine Mexican Black Kingsnake(L.g.nigritus).....................Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

This is the information you get from reading and not doing.

West texas Splendida are larger but not the ones that occur with MBK's. So when you say "splendida" are bigger, that is totally out of context and useless information. Unless it was the "splendida" that occurs with the black kings.

Also, to intergrade is not very common. If it intergrades, then its considered the same animal(these days)

There is no range that only has MBK's,(except if its a few square feet) there are only areas that have both black kings and splendida.

Again, this is similar to Stripes and bandeds, in SoCal. Or conjunctiva or nitita in Baja. Many coastal cal localities have a black form too.

A much better question is, is there some consistancy to this? and the answer is yes. All cases of black forms or striped forms are assoiated with raparian areas(black, striped) vs. xeric area, banded, normal) Of course there is more, there is always more to it.

The reality is, your thinking is about names and I feel they SHOULD have different names, but they are still the same snake that occurs in the same spot and wild females produce both types and tweeners. That is the reality. Cheers

>> with meristics being different as well.

Actually, the meristics are identical-
From Blaney 1977. Systematics of the Common Kingsnake,Lampropeltis getulus....

L.g.splendida- Dorsal scales:23-25 rows
Ventrals:199-227 in males, 203-237 in females
Subcaudals:45-62 im males, 40-52 in females
Infralabials:Usually 9, occasionally 10
Intergenials: normally 2/2, often 2/3 in the
Western part of the range, and 1/2 in the
Eastern part
Tail length:13.4% of total length(10.9-14.1%)in
males, and 12.4%(11.3-13.5%) in females

L.g.nigrita- Dorsal scales:23-25 rows (identical)
Ventrals:213-225 in males, and 214-225 in females
(both within the range of splendida)
Subcaudals:52-56 in males, and 47-51 in females
(both within the range of splendida)
Infralabials:9 or 10 (identical)
Intergenials:2/2 or 2/3 (identical)
Tail length:14.2%(14.1-14.4%) in males, and
13.4% in one female. (slight variation)

Blaney also states "The pattern is a reduced L.g.splendida pattern, SOMETIMES being so reduced that there is no visible pattern.....of the 13 specimens examined, only 2 have the uniformly black pattern". Basically, he bases the validity of nigrita SOLELY on their melanistic trait

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Ace

Ace,.....when I mentioned the meristics being different,I in no way meant ALL of them, it was only pertaining to the ventrals,.....but looking back at those numbers, it is such a wide variable in each, that it would average out to basically the same thing......my main point was to mention that mbk's can typically change from the "splendida look", to a "textbook MBK" like the photo of the one you posted previously.....that's all..............................Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

If what I'm hearing is correct then it sounds as if I may have a splendida looking MBK hatchling that should turn darker. After hearing the replys about this being the case combined with the breeders good reputation then I am inclined to agree. I am going to keep ytaking pics every month until grown to document to color change for when this topic comes up again later. Thanks for all the responses.

Why did you or whoever it was that bought it buy it if you thought it was misrepresented? This subject has been discussed on here before and I think FR explains it best. It is nice any which way.... all Kings are great snakes. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

FR asked me the same question and this was my response to his post:

LOL. I was waiting for someone to ask just that and was wondering why no one had. I only paid 35$ wich is not a lot to pay for any king snake really. My step daughter who is 8 yrs old wanted her first snake and she liked the "sparkley one" that we ended up buying. I was talking to the breeder about his OBK's and easterns that he did not bring with him and got on the subject of the snake my daughter wanted.

I had no idea MBK's could start out like this but it doesn't surprise me since many babies dont look like the adults they will become. I wasn't making an investment in a future breeder just a pet to get my daughter interested in the hobby.

As far as misrepresentation at shows you are right. There was one gentlemen that claimed to have the "original line" of okeetee corns that he himself collected in the 1970's but could not look at me when I asked him if he knew of the Abbott line okeetees. He just said he never heard of anyone named Abbott.

Well that's great you bought the kid a snake. My daughter is four and she loves reptiles. We had a blast at NARBC this weekend. I think it is a good looking snake you have there, kind of a win win situation as if it stayed that way or turned black it would still be cool. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com