Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just came back from my buddys house with new pics to finally PROVE my "GREEN/ANERY" Monster Island milk line. I went to put em in the gallery but they are too big and I am too computer stupid to resize. Anyone out there I can email the pics to that can help in posting em? They arent the best pics(man those little buggers are tough to hold still)but show the same obvious differences that the adults do. Wow, this has been a long project to prove out. Jeff

Go ahead and send em' to me...
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com

Shoot man,
Its easy!
Click start, programs, and go into your accessories on your windows.
Open Paint program.

Click file, then open, and go to the picture you want to resize and click it.

Once you have the giant picture on your screen, click Image and go down to stretch/skew and click it.

Then change horizontal to 50% and vertical 50%.
Then repeat horizontal 75% and vertical 75%.

Then save the picture under a different name and include resize so you know the pic you changed, and your done.
Thats what I do, its easyer then it sounds.

Good Luck:
JasonMc

Both of these babies just shed so they should be equally colored. Of course its more noticable in person, but only 1/11 certainly says recessive to me. Compare these to the adult pics and its more obvious even if they arent the best pics. I have been trying to prove this for about 6 years and its nice to be able to finally post em.Jeff

Let me know what you think,Jeff

well there maybe something happening "maybe" but imho it would take a few more generations f2's,f3's to proove out as a prooven reccesive morph. or maybe its just the pics(but lighter is not anery. lacking ALL red pigment is anery i still see orangeeRed pigment in the neonates saddles,maybe its hypo or simple varieability but i certainly would not call that lighter one anerythristic i just dont see it,sorry. is the father the anery looking one in the old pics? if he sired it and its a girl raise her up and breed her back to her father then it will be definitive as all of that clutch should/would/will be anerythristic if indeed thats what is happening. still got a few years to go to proove it but def. a cool project personally id keep the entire group together its until prooven or disprooven,,,,,,,thomas davis

Thomas, you discounted every single pic I posted of the adults. Maybe its not the "classic" black/white or even purple anery, but if you saw it in person its SO obvious. There is a little color, but you can say the same about the anery mt kings. The cleanliness of the pattern is a give away, but its my opinion that as these grow in the wild these anery actually "GREEN UP", and there is a tint to the scales that the pics dont pic up regardless of shed. Well, you discounted the adults, you are discounting the babies, and you are asking MORPH TO MORPH breeding to confirm??

well looks like you were onto something,cool to finally see it through.hate to get technical about it but i would call that hypoerythristic,as opposed to anerythristic;clearly has some red pigment.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I dont want to be known as a blow hard,lol. I have seen morphs before and a hyper....that may be more descriptive. Lets see if these do turn GREEN in captivity the way they do in the wild....thats going to be interesting to me! Thanks,Jeff

>>Let me know what you think,Jeff

No offense but those appear to be within the parameters of normal variation in my opinion. But you know what they say about opinions. Not to mention I am far from an expert when it comes to eastern milk snakes. *shrug*

dg

Hey there, long time! I have been a milksnake breeder for about 18 years now(WOW time flies) and I have hatched out what I thought may have been different before. Variation is what interests me in milks to begin with. But with this locale popping up SEVERAL of these interesting individuals I could not really argue with anyone who said PROVE IT. Well, now that I have, I am still getting critics. Sounds like rat breeding again right?? There was only 1 of these in a clutch of 11, and it was hard enough to get a pic with 2 of these little buggers in it never mind the whole clutch. There is some color retained, but the results were PREDICTABLE as far as color,pattern and ratio. I can understand if this species doesnt interest some, but I think this one a bit more conclusive than the WC HYPO baby posted last year right?? What interests me is if you cross one of these to a albino and back to get a SNOW if you will get a GREEN and WHITE snake!! That would definately be something different! Its just a piece of the puzzle, and I am happy to have gotten this far. It hasnt been easy,lol.Dwight, dont be a stranger! Jeff

You acutally have not proved anything yet. What were the parents? Were they hets? If so, you need to breed that poss. anery back to one of the parents and get a ratio of something like 50/50. Breed the poss. anery to another poss. anery and get 100% anerys and then its proven. Right now you just have really suggestive evidnece, but a ratio of 1/11 doesn't prove that its recessive it can be like the Seib line of VP sins.

Very cool looking snakes though,
Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

When you start a breeding project you should have a goal, in my opinion. Now I have had several of these snakes but the WC ones are extremely difficult to get on f/t domestic mice. It has taken years for me to get to the point where I have cb adults on f/t and breeding. Now you can see the adult GREEN/Anery "morph" I have been trying to prove. You can see the color differences in the offspring. That is the EXPECTED result so to me and many others they are PROVED. Now some may be skeptical, so be it. I have had to deal with a ton of those in my breedings of yellow rat morphs over the years. I think you will notice anyone breeding NA milks simply doesnt question it as they have likely beared witness to my problems with these over the years. Carl B has that cb06 and he wont give it up for anything,lol. Its too bad that some need more proof the world is round but so be it.Jeff

I am a geneticist.

My point was not to be confrontational, but that you did not give us enough information to make an informed decision for oursevles on the validity of your statement.

What is the genotype/phenotype of the parents that produced the 1/11 anery?

How many breedings have you done to show that the expected result is the result you get?

To "prove" its recessive you must show that if you breed the anery to an anery you get 100% anery; anery to het = 50/50 anery/het ; het to het 1/4 anery. I see no evidence of this in your post above.

Look at it this way, last year I produced a crazy patterned sinaloan, almost no red. It was 1 out of a clutch of 6. Thats not significantly different from an expected 1/4 from a het/het breeding. Does that prove the adults were het for crazy pattern? No. Just because you see a lot of the anery in nature does not mean its simple recessive. It could be mutligenic. And like I said, your results are suggestive but not proof.

I'd like to see it proved though.
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

I am not necessarily confrontational but I stand behind the WORK I put into something. The "proof" was put on this forum "finally,lol" to get it out there. I had found this morph and had a very hard time reproducing it due to many factors. I respect anyone new to the forums but to the older people this has been hashed out ad infinitem,lol. To finally PROVE that this trait is reproducible is major...To SEE that its LIKELY a recessive gene and it acts thus,,,,PERFECT. Now if it were only a $10 albino nelsoni you would clamor all over it like you found neptune itself, but I wont let you,lol. Its simply a ugly morph of a obscure race of an unpopular subspecies. But no one can argue what it is and the fact that its a step to producing LARGE bodied NA milks into the "marketplace". If we can combine some of these like genes we can push out all those INFIDELS(LOL)who breed those central and south american ssp that take up so much room on our shelves. Those who know me understand the sarcasm,lol. To the rest,,,,, ZHIVIO!!(cheers!). Jeff

Jeff it could just be the pic but I'm not seeing anything outside of normal variation there. That said it doesn't mean you aren't onto something. I noted that with my hypo coastals some are more hypo than others. By selectively breeding the lightest I'm now producing some that almost look albino. I have no doubt that this local is a good starting spot to selectively breed out a green eastern milk.

Tony, Carl gave me 2.2 double het hypo/striped coastal adults.....and was unwilling to part with that girl. If someone said that is a nice coastal but didnt agree it to be different until you bred it...you understand. This isnt a pattern difference. There is a tint that a camera cant pic up that was most noticable on that HUGE GREEN one I found with Carl years ago. They have a tint within the scales that holds color....yet refracts light so that they almost always look freshly shed. STRANGE. While I will agree that they arent "striking" snakes like that coastal AS IS, but they are definately an ingredient in making a green and white frankenstein(hosying that name,lol) big enough to get people more into NA milks.
I have always considered the "hypo" coastals "RUBY EYE ALBINOS",and am not stupid enough to enter into that T discussion. I think I was the first to notice the "ruby eye albino" in the hondos too(you can check the forum,lol)...but that name EXTREME stuck,go figure. While it does seem that MOST genes that pop up within colubrids follow "expected" results some are still uncommon or unpredictable. People here like PREDICTABLE results. If you go down a sp or ssp list of morphs almost all would fall into:

RED EYE ALBINO,RUBY EYE ALBINO, HYPO, ANERYTHRISTIC or LEUCISTIC. Note I refer to these as morphs and dont want to confuse heritable pattern mutation. I think it imporant to note with corns that as other morphs have been identified they havent had corresponding morphs YET in other colubrids. There are "incomplete" morphs out there, like Terry Dunhams "hyper" AX MT kings. If pressed, I would not call this ANERY TYPE 1, but its more likely either ANERY TYPE 2/HYPER...whatever. Good to talk to you today, will write you about that breeding loan,Jeff

I don't know what anyone else think but I really think those giants are sweet. Both morphs are neat. They are truly unique. I was wondering, when it comes to these monster milks do they offer a challenge in getting them to breed and such being that they are from somewere that you would imagine to be pretty specific. Or do they prove to be easily bred like hondos and sins and other of the like.
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-J.Hill

These are not 2 morphs but what I think is one that changes color as it grows.....from a "hyperanery" to "GREEN". While I havent proved the latter, to look at them in both sizes you can see how the lack of a color(or 2,chromataphores)influences the subtle changes as they age. NOTE THE VERY CLEAN PATTERN. I have found one about 2' and 2 adults. They were all males. The cb is female. None of the wc would feed on domestic rodents....or anything else for that matter. They are from an island where moles,voles and shrews dominate any mice and rats so there is little hope training them on domestic....In 15 years I have never had a wc adult eat more than twice. I have had adult males in captivity caught in May, overwintered,bred and released the following June without feeding. These are a unique race with a small enough population to make finding wc morphs not uncommon. I am hoping the fact that with the morph CRAZE out there some people will make space in their collections for a true NA rarity. Not to make a buck, but to help me establish a sustainable cb population. Jeff

very interesting keep this project goning im workin on breeding what i think is a hypo eastern milk