Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Seeing as how the forward thinking state of california will only allow me to collect a single zonata, what species out there would make a good hybrid with zonata?

I'm guessing pyromelana would, but geez, if I'm going to make a hybrid, I don't know that using two similar species would really be a fruitful experience ...

Would zonata X alterna be a reasonable hybrid to try?
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3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I would check into the specifics of that regulation. I know fish and game here in CA can have it's head up it's &$$ sometimes but I suspect that there is a way arround your problem.

Specifically I would expect that while only allowed to "collect" one that you could legally obtain a captive bred mate for it from another individual.

Most of the CA native species that you can legally posess at all have provisions for captive breeding with permit so it's worth looking into. If for some crazy reason they won't allow you to possess a pair for captive propogation yourself then I would check out the legality of you posessing one and a family member posessing their own animal. If you have to go that route though make suree you get a boy and girl lol.

Either way gl.

I have a captive breeding permit.
There is a cumulitive possession limit of 30 non commercial specimens (all species combined) for RA permit holders, wild caught or not, but any above bag limit must come from a legal source - IE either I have to get lucky and use my bag limit to catch a gravid female, or I have to have a wife in which case we each can have one (I'm single and like it that way), or I have to be gifted additional captive bred specimens by people who bred them under permit.

They don't make it hard on purpose, it's the bag limit of 1 and the fact that I'm single that makes it hard.

To legally collect more than one, I would have to get a special permit above my RA permit and fishing license.
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3.3.3 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

That clears up some of my confusion. In that case good luck and I hope you get lucky in recieving second from one of those sources you mentioned.

I am not against hybrids and will prolly start a project in the next few years but I don't see much point in hybridizing just to have offspring of some kind. Personally I preffer to just do it in the case of a targeted appearance/set of traits that is not present in a normal species.

But whatever gets you excited is your call as long as your the one finding homes for em lol. Good luck with your project and thanks again for the info.

So would it be legal for someone else to get a fishing permit and bag one themselves and then breeder loan it to you for the breeding season?

And if so would they need to have any sort of captive breeding permit on top of the liscence themselves?

I believe if both parties had the non-commercial permit they could do a breeder loan. This has not come up in any legal cases that I know of because non-commercial permit use is much more infrequent than commercial breeders use. Since CA zonatas are not commercial under any circumstances in CA I don't know if anyone has tried that approach. I would simply ask CF&G if it's ok.
Another alternative if you have the noncommercial permit that is admittedly hard to do, is to catch a gravid female zonata in the wild. It can be done if you know when and where to look. Offspring of wild breedings are considered captive borns, I believe. Then you would hopefully get a male baby from the clutch which you could then report on your permit as captive born and raise it up to breed the mom. If you want to outcross later you can always gift the wild mom to somebody and collect an unrelated wild specimen.

I'm surprised that you say you have a CA breeders permit because apparently you haven't looked into what exactly that permit will allow you to do. Under CA regs, you need a fishing license to possess wild collected reptiles, each with differing bag limits. With the breeders permit, you are allowed to breed and sell native captive born reptiles, but ONLY gophers, CAL kings, and rosys - nothing else. Regardless of whether you catch a gravid zonata, you will not be allowed to keep any of the offspring as they are still considered 'wild' for the purpose of possession, however this is only semantics as they consider them captive borns that they don't want released, so you have to 'dispose' of them at the end of the year by giving them away. Zonatas are NOT allowed under the breeders permit. So far, I have had no issues with selling hybrids of zonatas and they easily hybridize with alterna.
GLENN

I am finding all of this information interesting but I was wondering...

Does anyone have a decent link for information about what the permit allows you to do, what you have to do to get it, and possibly what is/isn't legal as far as herping in CA?

Every time I've gone looking all I have found are either totally unrelated pages or 300 pages of legalese that I am not sure if is related because I don't want to devote that many hours to sifting through it.

Thanks in advance if you do, if not I'll wait until I need to worry about it and meet up with someone who actively uses theirs to get info.

Call California Fish and Game and tell them you want an application for the breeders permit. They will send it to you by mail and it will contain all the info I just replied to apidites about below. If you don't return it nothing will happen, it's just an application.

I did this in 2004 and I also called them with a few specific questions at that time and they were very friendly and answered them on the phone.

Now in the early 1990s or so I called them they were not so friendly and couldn't/wouldn't answer my questions (told me Florida Kings and Chain Kings were illegal in California and said they would arrest me if I had any) but the permit was new then and I later found out there was a huge undercover sting going on. They were very tight lipped then but my recent interaction with them was very positive.

Hi Glenn, I'm pretty sure we talked a long time ago about alterna at the San Diego herp show.
I don't actually have the breeders permit but I have looked into it and seen the application. You are correct concerning the COMMERCIAL provisions. If you are the Glenn I think you are I know you have been around even longer than me. That being the case maybe you got the permit some time ago and the NON-COMMERCIAL provisions were not in it then. In about 2004 I got an application for the permit but decided not to apply as I only keep a small number of CA herps and decided I didn't really need or want to breed them, most of my collection is graybands, mexicana and pyros. In that year, and I assume currently as well, there is a provision which allows for the NONCOMMERCIAL POSSESION ONLY of any non-protected native CA species/subspecies up to 30 specimens IN AGGREGATE. The in aggregate refers to both captive born and wild specimens combined.
As an example, if you had 2 wild caught cal kings and 1 wild caught zonata you could legally POSSESS 27 captive born zonatas.
If you had 2 wild caught cal kings, 2 wild caught gophersnakes, 2 wild caught rosy boas and 1 wild caught zonata you could legally POSSESS 23 captive born zonatas. Captive born progeny of legally bred COMMERCIAL species/subspecies are not included in the allowable 30 in aggregate of NONCOMMERCIAL species/subspecies.
The original poster appeared to me to know that you first of all need a fishing license for any wild take so I neglected to mention that.
The problem the poster has is how to get a mate for the zonata since you can only collect one. Of course if you have a spouse, child at home or a roomate that is interested in obtaining the permit and joining in the project with you they can use their zonata. Since the poster had none of those I suggested he may be able to collect a gravid zonata as I have been told verbally (secondhand) that captive born progeny of wild bred snakes are considered captive born by CAF&G. If the poster decides to go that route it would be wise to obtain a written statement directly from CAF&G to verify this though.

I was in no way trying to discourage the poster from breeding zonata X alterna hybrids, only trying to assist him in breeding zonatas if that's what he wanted. I believe I mentioned Troy Hibbits had made that cross before too and they were nice looking.

Hello Aaron,
Probably it was me you have talked to before. I did San Diego shows for a few years.

I don't recall if there was a provision in the beginning for non-commercial, but you are right that there is now. I think it was 1992 when we were working on the permits (I helped and they rewarded me with #3 - so I guess I have something to show for it). I don't disagree with what you have said about the aggregate possession limit for non-commercial natives, but you need to remember that you have to look at it from CDFGs perspective. They only recognize captive born native animals from 3 genera/species. In other words, because these three species are tracked (each CH/CB animal is receipted and documented) they are the only ones that can be considered captive produced. If you catch a gravid zonata and hatch the babies, they are considered captives only in that CDFG doesn't want them released, but they are not captive born in reality as there is only your word that they were produced in captivity and no paperwork on them. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well enough or not, but the 'in aggregate' that you are referring to makes sense, but keep in mind that only Cal kings, gophers and rosys can be considered captive born. So while you can take your one wild zonata and breed it to your son's wild zonata, you would have to farm out the offspring to other relatives - each with fishing licenses in order to 'keep' them. Or, to bring the discussion full circle, you can just hybridize the zonata and then you don't have the problem.
cheers,
GLENN

Glenn not to be hardheaded but CF&G does recognize captive born zonata for possesion puroses only.

There are two provisions on the breeders permit. There is a commercial provision and the is a noncommercial provision. Most people only know about the commercial provision.
It works like this:
1)You can posses unlimited captive born specimens of commercial species.
a)Commercial species= gophers, cals & rosies.

2)You can posses up to 30 captive born speciemens of noncommercial native species.
a)Noncommercial species= all natives which have a bag limit.
b)However any wild caughts of both commercial and noncommercial species subrtact from the total number of the 30 captive born noncommercials that you may keep.
c)You must still file and keep records on noncommercials just as you do on commercials. The boxes are there on the permit application I have from 2004 or so.

The gray area is whether captive borns which came from a wild caught gravid specimen are consider captive born or if they are still considered wild caught. Regardles the provision for possesing up to 30 native noncommercial captive born specimens is there. The hard part is finding someone (or some cooperating team) who has gone to the trouble of doing it and is willing to gift you the specimen(s) needed.

I found my old permit application and the regulation book they sent with it. Now granted this is acually from 2002 and it could have changed since then but check out chapter 43, section 7, paragraph b. It has the provisions for noncommercial propagation.
It says "The department may authorize possesion and propagation of no more than 3 species and no more than 30 individuals in the aggragate including progeny... Native reptiles and amphibians possessed pursuant to this subsection may not be puchased or sold" So I was a little off in omitting the part about it can be only 3 species buy nowhere does it say those 3 species are restriced to gophers, cals and rosies. Notice the above quotation says "amphibians" so it is clearly not refering to the gophers, cals and rosies. It appears to me that you may apply to breed any 3 species(or fewer) of any legally possessable CA natives. Of course pulchra would be excluded because there is a zero bag limit. Anything with a bag limit apparently can be applied for under this noncommercial section.
Zonata having a bag limit of just one would be harder to do but if you had two people indipentantly obtain the permit, one party with a wc male the other party with a wc female, they could breed them and produce a clucth of legal captive born zonatas. The progeny could then be bred and/or distributed to other permit holders as gifts.
Again I hope I am not appearing arguementive I just think it is good for people to know they don't have to be limited to just gophers, cals and rosies so long as they don't purchase or sell.

I think I agree with most of what you have said. You are right that the regs don't specify the three species, so they could be any species. I believe that the reason that it mentions three species is because it is intended to refer to the three commercial species, but because it is not explicitly stated as such in the non-commercial area I suppose it is open to interpretation.

Here is the current applicable reg:

(b) Non-commercial Propagation. The department may authorize
the possession and propagation of no more than three species
and no more than 30 individuals in the aggregate including
progeny under a native reptile and amphibian propagation permit.
Within the overall limit of 30 individuals, the department may authorize
no more than four of any one species to be taken from the
wild. Individuals may be taken only by the methods authorized by
sections 41.5 and 42.5. Native reptiles and amphibians possessed
pursuant to this subsection may not be purchased or sold.

I think the wording to take note of is MAY - this word is not used in the rest of the regulations relating to commercial propatation. I am under the impression that should you apply for a non-commercial permit, it is up to them to decide what they will allow you to have. In other words, you don't have the right to propagate whatever species you want, they must approve your permit first - case in point is the line stating..."Within the overall limit of 30 individuals, the department may authorize
no more than four of any one species to be taken from the
wild." I believe this to mean that you essentially have to ask for permission of what you want to breed and then they will allow you to go out and collect up to four individuals for your program.

As far as the permit mentioning Amphibians and you having inferred that that meant that amphibians were to be included in 'captive propagation' I would have to simply say that Amphibians were probably included to allow for a future time when they might want to add some amphibians into the commercial propagation regs. The title of the permit has always been RA (native reptile and amphibian propagation permit).

I thank you for allowing me to revisit these regs. But, it seems to me that all of this work is kind of pointless. Why would you want to pay for this permit each year? I think it is just more of an intrusion that is unnecessary into your herp lives. For most species, you are allowed to posess at least two - which is a breeding population and for zonata as long as you don't live alone or don't have any friends, you could still breed with someone who has one of the opposite sex. Either way, you will have to get rid of the young within 45 days of hatching by giving to schools or others with fishing licences.
sincerely,
GLENN

Well that makes sense to me. A well known researcher has told me that it is possible for a private citizen to get zonata approved under these regs. I imagine if somebody did then it would be hard to get rid of the babies since if the party recieving them does not have a permit as well they can only legally recieve one.

I do wish someone would attempt it though because I think if it got to be common practice and the captive population became very large then CF&G would be more apt to consider placing zonata in the commercial breeders catagory.

I agree with you that it should be easy for someone to be approved for zonata with a non-commercial permit. I think there is a gray area regarding getting rid of the offspring though. It seems to me that anyone with a fishing license would be allowed to posess one of them. Furthermore, I would suspect that because they are tracked and permitted it might theoretically be possible to ship them out of the state to anyone who is not a resident and wouldn't need a permit so long as it was a gift. However, I am almost positive that zonata will never be put into the commercial permit as they were left out in the beginning because of the pulchra issue. The difficulty in identification would make the abuse of misrepresenting pulchra rampant - particularly because officials are not going to do scale counts and the like for identification purposes. However, this brings up an interesting topic regarding pattern anomalies. Some of the high white Cal kings could technically be any kind of getula and in a lot of instances people assume that they are treated like amels and thus exempt from the regulations.
thanks,
GLENN

Maybe this should be on the Herp Law forum but I am finding it interesting. I think you are correct, in fact I knew a researcher permited for zonata and he was giving away offspring. He offered one to me but said that was all he could legally give me.
Regarding the cal king pattern morphs. I know the letter of the law says to commercialize without a permit they must be red eyed albinos but I have seen shows with apparently unpermitted breeders selling hi-whites, hi-yellows and lavenders. I don't think CF&G cares but personally I would not risk it. Maybe you know something about this, according to the book Smuggled by Raymond Hoser the reason amel cal kings are legal is because of a court case involving Terry Lilley possessing amels which CF&G lost. I don't know if this is true but it makes me wonder if some of the other unnatural morphs were to be involved in a court case CF&G would be forced to allow them too.

Sorry I missed this discussion.

The reason I obtained my permit in the first place is because I collected a gravid alligator lizard. I was planning to get one for 2007 but this was 2006.

The only place I could find to take the offspring within the 45 day window of hatching was going to euthanize them for a vertebrate zoology collection. So I called F&G.

They said they were considered captive bred, and that if I got a permit - even though the application was AFTER they hatched, I would then be able to keep more than bag limit.

Furthermore, they said if I wanted to breed those, it would be fine, and that I could add genetic variety by adding captive bred young bred by someone else with a permit.

So you can have more than bag limit of non commercial species as long as the excess are all captive bred. They still count towards the 30 limit though.

My current 2007 permit lists me as having 2 males and 3 female California Alligator Lizards. Bag limit on the species is 2, but I only have 1 taken from wild, the other four are considered captive produced.

I gifted the others - and because the people I gifted them to do not have RA permits, they can not possess more than 2. But if they ever get an RA permit, they can list that those two were captive produced and include a copy of the receipt I was required to give them with my RA number on it, and then they can collect two if they wanted. But w/o an RA permit, they can only have 2 apiece CB or WC.

That's what F&G told me when I specifically asked, and they approved my renewel permit - even though it was obvious the clutch was from a wild copulation, as the date layed was within a couple weeks of date female collected, and I had no male.
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3.6 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Yes, Troy Hibbits did that cross once and the babies were very nice looking and didn't really look like any pure species.
Alternatively if you want to make pure zonatas you could get some agalmas, CF&G so far has recognized them as non-native.