Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok so allthough i have been out of the ball python scene for a couple years now i noticed that the prices still seem to drop every year. For example a few years ago when i got into the whole mrphs scene and what not i could have never dreamed of buying a pied or hets. While i still cant afford a Piebald i have hets coming soon that i also could not have afforded a few years ago. My question is why is it that the prices are always dropping? I mean does supply increase and demand decrese every year? I can understand with alot of co-doms because they are quiker to produce babies that look like them. But shouldnt simple reccesive snakes be dropping prices slower? I am still trying to build up my collection so I am not complaining im just curious. Maybe this question makes me sound like i am in it for the money (allthough its a nice plus) but i do really enjoy keeping these reptiles and im just curious weather or not other people think this will eventually kill the market?
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B Sleeper

1.0 Chocolate Lab
0.1 ?? Normal Ball python (yet different)
1.0 04 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Pied
1.0 06 Pastel
0.? 07 Pos Het Albino (Momma has not laid the eggs yet)

The way I understand it, it is the supply and demand model tied in with the novelty effect. 10 years ago, a few people had Albinoes and Pieds. The best of my memory, they were running $7000 and $12,000. Well, they are both very nice morphs, but today there are a lot of plain albinoes on the market and there a few more Pieds around. But now we have the Lavander and Caramel Albinoes. And Pied is cool, but an ALL White snake is simply amazing. But, even the novelty of the white snake is wearing off since there are so many combos to create one.

It's like I was told, It all depends on when you want to get into the game. I bought a male Pastel last year for $425. They will probably go for $150 this year. I got a Het. Albino this weekend for $75. Expecting an Albino this summer. Couldn't afford either a couple of years ago, now I'm losing the investment before they breed once. But, I'm not in it for the money, I love the potential.

Either all that, or some really cool idiot that doesn't know what he has, floods the market for dirt cheap and forces the big guys to drop the price just to break even.
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That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

The number of Ball Python morphs increases exponentially every year. That means there are a bunch of new morphs to fill that spot of high dollar snake. So the morphs that were in that position before, which are now more common as well, drop to a lower position.

Also, now there are fewer people getting in it for the money, which means a lot of people are comfortable spending a certain price range for a pet or small just for fun breeding project. Prices adjust to meet the market.

With so many choices for a person starting out to find something within $2500 (which believe it or not is the price many people pay for prized pets), that leaves little need for higher priced animals. (this is just an example)

The last factor resulting in price drops are from the idiots, I'm leaving that as it is.

Co-dominant and dominant mutations are dropping faster than recessives. Between 2005-2006 a lot of co-dom morphs ended up selling for 10% or less of what they did the year before. While recessives only really dropped 50% for the ones that took big hits.

Another consideration, with a lot of people acquireing to breed, they are okay with trades. Well trades do not put money back into the market, so people have no money to buy high dollar animals so they get traded or sold increasingly cheaper until there is a customer.

Sorry for the horrible grammer, I just took a multivariable calc III exam and my brain is a little fried.

In 1996 these same discussions were being debated and talked about. The truth is that the once scoffed Royal Python was considered a cheap boring snake not worthy of collecting. Kevin for example along with a few others including myself realized that Royal pythons are one the coolest most interesting snakes. Then, and I do mean after the fact we began to realize that for example the Albino Royal Python was genetic, “thanks to Bob Clark”. Then the proverbial Bandwagon started to gain momentum. I bought an Orange Royal Python female from Kevin way back around 1993 or 94 because we “Kevin and I” were not sure if it could be genetic or not, but as Kevin said to me, She is a really Orange female Hatchling “import” that might be genetic. We agreed that breeding her to figure out if she was genetic was definitely worth while. The reason for this rant is simple, PASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is pretty obvious that the Royal Python has gained and maintained a status few other snakes have or could attain by collectors and breeders “regardless of their intent, be it money or hobby or both”. Look at this forum! Do you think these people with such opinions and dedication to a specific snake are just buying Royal Pythons with a set collection list? Do you think that the Royal Python collectors are satisfied with just a few morphs? NO WAY! Why? It is a PASSION which gives a thrill of attaining and producing rare and exotic Royal Pythons. Do not kid yourself, Royal Python morphs are many but the combinations from those morphs are years from produced. Anyone that thinks the Royal Python market has crashed and is over, please sell off your collection and leave it behind you. $20,000.00 for a snake is a lot of money but then so is 2,000.00. The fact that anyone would even consider investing a lot of money in Royal Pythons means “a market”. If someone produces for example a “Caramel Glow Pied Pastel het for Lavender Albino” do you actually think that is easy to produce? If so, how do you get one? Your buy it or make it! That takes time or money either way. From what people say at the shows, Royal Pythons are the dominate snake at the shows and they are the most popular snake. Name an investment snake that compares to the potential of Royal Pythons, but then again I personally am prejudice because I love Royal Pythons
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Your questions are valid and your investment is good and worthwhile. Do not let the nay sayers occupy your thoughts. Long haul is the key.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Cool thanks to everyone who replied. I definatly got answers i was looking for. I am one of those who is in it for the snakes and excitment of seeing what hatches. I mean i would be lieing if i said i didnt want the money that comes with it if i can be succesfull but if i could only give away the babies i would still do it. I have my first clutch coming soon (well first clutch that i knew was coming rather) mom is laying on her side as we speak and even though its from a het albino male to a normal (yet different lol) female i cant wait to hatch them out. I am happy to hear that these same questions where being asked in 1996 and things are still going strong i just wish i had the know how and $ to get into it back then i could only imagin the things i could be or would be hatching by now. Thanks again for all of everyones input.

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B Sleeper

1.0 Chocolate Lab
0.1 ?? Normal Ball python (yet different)
1.0 04 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Pied
1.0 06 Pastel
0.? 07 Pos Het Albino (Momma has not laid the eggs yet)

Great looking Dog!

Let us know what you hatch.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Thank you. All my friends are jelious of him lol. One was even pretty mad when i told him that Rebel (the dog) is my new best friend. I thought it was funny.
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B Sleeper

1.0 Chocolate Lab
0.1 ?? Normal Ball python (yet different)
1.0 04 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Pied
1.0 06 Pastel
0.? 07 Pos Het Albino (Momma has not laid the eggs yet)

the prices are dropping so fast because people are convinced that they will. For instance, someone above posted that Pastels will probably hit $150.00 this year, and they probably will. However this is not because of supply and demand. Customers will be happy to pay $200.00 for pastels until the economy crashes. The reason the price will drop again this year is because the majority of those selling them are convinced that if they don't drop the price no one will buy. To give a non snake example, look at computers. Ten years ago you had to spend thousands for a decent home computer. Now you can get one for $400.00 to $1000.00. You do not however see them steadily dropping in price every year because they have found an equilibrium with the market. In snakes the burmese has also found this. You can now get an albino burm for $200.00 and it will remain at that price because it has found an equilibrium. There is no reason why the pastel ball should not also level out at $200.00 except that the people selling are convinced otherwise.
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

johnavilla, very well said.

The only other comment I can think to make about this, is that if anybody pays attention to any other reptile market out there (the prices asked for any other species), they go through the exact same dramatic drop. In fact, most will drop off more dramatically and faster than what we have seen in the BP market.

All of this is driven by the same thing; breeders who are convinced that their animals won't sell if they don't drop the price. Most of the time, the most dramatic changes come from the crowd who think they will make a buck fast in the turn-around from the first or second breeding and then sell out their breeding stock. By undercutting 'the other guy,' they think they will sell everything first and make their profit.

Now we seem to have plenty of people who are just scared the price will drop on its own anyway, and so drop their asking price so they don't get left behind. Let me ask you this: how hard is it to adjust your prices once you see you are having trouble selling something? Not hard. Additionally, if you care about your animals, is it the end of the world to hold onto them for another year just because they didn't sell? They are worth more when they are older and more thoroughly established. It's this kind of market panic that frustrates the heck out of me. Calm down folks!!

~Rebecca
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0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

Thanks, I usually enjoy your posts so it's nice to hear.
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

I agree. I posted that the Pastels will probably go for $150 because I have already seen them for that. As a consumer/collector I would pay $200 and am not upset about the $450 I spent. I feel like I paid for the quality that I got. I surf the classifieds for days or weeks. I watch the prices. Yes, I pissed and moaned about the outrageous $20k for a Lavander and then I saw one this weekend. If the cost remains $20K, I'll save up and get one. If it starts to drop, I'll wait until it hits equalibrium. I buy what I like and I like to get it at a reasonable price. If they breed or I decide to try a little project, that's just bonus.

But as far as market crash, I bought my first Ball Python about ten years ago for $35 and my secong for $30. The third was $20. Now, good normals average $75. That's just normals. Even if the market crashes and you have to pay people to take your snakes, I'll have mine and enjoy every minute of them.
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That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

....really............

you all don't live in Pa do you?..........
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.................too many babies left .......

Massachusetts. What do you mean? And an ellipses is three periods not forty.
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

ellipses isn't 3 dots it's 2 e's 2 L's a p an I and well....anyways......................................... that was 41 dots........

......Mass....that explains the higher prices.......

Pa.. ...can't give away balls.........

come to Hamburg......bring cash.......
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.................too many babies left .......

No, I'm in Texas. Well, South West Arkansas, but not by choice.

So you saying you can't Give Away your babies? What ya got and what ya want?
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That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

Kyle,
I like the way you think.
The future is looking brighter all the the time!
Kudos to you my friend!
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Harlin,

Much appreciated! We are on the same page and I am proud of it my friend. Your common sense and thoughtful post on the forum drive hard and direct against all of the primitive short sided and limited views of simple thinkers. Some people actually would like credit for saying the market is crashed. Their 15 minutes of notoriety are inconsequential. We believe in these amazing animals and we also appreciate the effort/time/money/foresight/passion it takes to achieve what breeders strive for. The Royal Python market/hobby/business has a lot of GREAT people that contribute to breeding these Royal Pythons. The sky is falling crowd contradict themselves by staying in a market they perceive to be crashed. Their brilliance is only superseded by their persistence for saying the same thing year after year. The Royal Python market has endured lack luster years combined with bountiful resilience.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Hi Harlen, normally I peruse the forums but seldom post. After reading this long list of post regarding market stability I feel commpelled to reply. First the ball python market has always been inflated in terms of the really high end morphs. Very few of these were sold for hard cash but traded to others for other high end morphs. Something is worth what someone else is willing to pay cash for not trade!! Secondly in this age of technology anyone and everyone have access to buy from each other without any price controls in place at all. Before computers and Reptile Shows breeders would wholesale their stock to dealers{ there were never a lot} and the snakes were sold on price lists. The dealers controlled the prices and the market was more stable for much longer. That is evident today in most commodities that we use daily{cars, food, clothes, etc.}. An average person can't buy a new car at dealer prices. You also can't buy clothes from the factory that produces them. This creates price stability and earns the trust of interested customers. Third the entire industry is based on a pyramid scheme. I'm not implying that this is negative its just a fact of life. Fourth like the Stock Market you have to be in it for the long haul. Very few people invest in stocks for a few years and retire on the profit. This business is not now and never has been a get rich quick business. You also have to first and foremost have an undying love and interest in what you're doing. The business hasn't changed in the 40 years I've been in it. Only the people in it have changed. While money is of course a factor it shouldn't be the primary factor. I kept herps before I ever considered doing it for a proffession. If tommorrow the entire reptile market crashed I would still keep herps. Life is all about the ride!!! Any misspellings or bad grammer should be blamed on Harlen and not me. Thanks for reading....Tom Crutchfield