Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Seems we get the weekly post about market and market crashing!

Those of you who see a crash in the near or distant future just don't understand ball python economics. Lets look at cornsnakes for a minute, the mutations started getting polular in the late 70's, yet some 25 years later, new cornsnake projects are still being created. Their polularity is still going strong, we are taking about a snake that can routinely lay up to 30+ eggs a clutch and double clutch on top of it.

Now ball pythons have quite a lower reproductive outcome. It takes years just to create a recessive double homo mutation and we've only tapped into a few recessive double homo projects, lets not even think of the triple homo project here. Throw in the dominant and co-dominant animals in the mix and we have ourselves some amazing crossing potential!

I say, nobody alive right now will see the day when all projects have been done, it is just mind blowing at what can and will be done, there is just so many combination possabilities.

In conclusion, take your market crash debates and burry them for good, it just won't happen.

Ball Pythons are and will continue to be the hottest genetic projects in the reptile hobby.

Anyone care to dance

Brian A.

Look at dogs. They've been around for hundreds of years and just when the market was leveling off, some genius decided to let a poodle and what ever breed. Now it's a "Designer" breed and the "Mutt" now costs more than both originals together.

Dogs are great, but Balls have more intrigue and potential. They have color and pattern mutations in both dominant and recessive. Not to mention the combination potential. That and my Balls don't keep me up all night barking at anything that moves.

I'll restate what someone else said, If you think it is over and headed for a crash, get out and give me all your snakes. I'll ride the Ball Train to the end.
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That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

90 percent of the country loves dogs, snakes are a different matter.

Also, I seriously doubt it if the people here would be happy getting the average price a corn snake sells for from their Ball clutches for the next 25 years.

Then you are into balls for the wrong reason, is greed the only driving force behind keeping/breeding ball pythons!

Also, I seriously doubt it if the people here would be happy getting the average price a corn snake sells for from their Ball clutches for the next 25 years.

average wholesale price of cornsnake=$8-25. would I be happy feeding and housing a pair of snakes with the intention of breeding it and making $100 off the clutch, no. We don't keep ball pythons for the money but we do keep over 100 of them (will be over 200 by the end of this year) to make extra money and I have no problem saying that. I have kept various snakes for the last 20 years and will always have snakes in my house. Corn snakes can lay double clutches of 25 eggs so it's feasible that one mature female can lay over 50 eggs in one year. It can take 10 years for one female ball python to lay that many. Are the prices on ball pythons comming down, YES. Will they continue to come down, YES. Do I think prime examples of any morph will be less than $100, not in my lifetime and I will be very content on making $500 per clutch.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

No where was $ value between a cornsnakes and a ball was mentioned, go re-read the text dude!

Only and just for your sake, I hope you make a million from your animals before the market crashes

"Dogs are great but balls have more intrigue and potential".
I actually peed a little when I read that. Comparing dogs to snakes as a pet, and SNAKES winning! Wow, my eyes are still watering...............
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www.strictlyballs.ca

I agree first of all this is not the stock market folks where people just care about the increase and decrease of the shares they own, this is a hobby and a great appreciation of ball pythons and that appreciation and dedication to the love and care that goes into keeping these beautiful snakes has resulted in all of the color morphs that we see in the hobby today , just remember that you cant crash a hobby , ball pythons keepers will always be around caring and enjoying their pet snakes just for the love of the hobby , making alittle income or a large income is just icing on the cake , breed on .

We've been getting weekly posts about the Ball Python market and the perceived lurking doom of "The Crash" for the last two years (and before that as well I am sure). About once every 2 or 3 months we also get posts where somebody who has been a member of the forum for just a short while complains about 1) the general format of the forum, 2) the other inexperienced newbies giving the most advice, or 3) "why don't we hear from the 'Big Boys'?" ...or some combination of all of these.

There are some things that get posted here you just have to be able to let roll off your back. Sometimes, there are a lot of these things posted. Let it roll.

Occasionally I read the market posts because they can occasionally contain a decent discussion... but it is mostly the same stuff getting re-hashed. The same goes for a lot of the other commonly repeated posts.

medusah, you seem to have the right take on this: keep and/or breed Ball Pythons because you enjoy Ball Pythons, and any income from your projects is just an added bonus.

Good luck,

~Rebecca
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0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

It's funny you should say this....it seems like to me that everything you just said in your post has been pretty redundant/hased out/kinda like beeting a dead horse. What's funny about your post is that all the things that you speak about you have discussed in different threads this week.

As for breeding balls because you enjoy the hobby....well that's fine, however, there are people who breed balls for a living. What's wrong with enjoying what you do and also being aware of the bottom line?
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Nick

Um, the "redundancy" you spoke of was not from me there bro. I have a tendency to respond to husbandry and genetics questions and not touch the stuff I just remarked on in this thread.

As for your comment: "As for breeding balls because you enjoy the hobby....well that's fine, however, there are people who breed balls for a living. What's wrong with enjoying what you do and also being aware of the bottom line?"

There are plenty of people who do things (in whatever profession) for a living without fully thinking through their options. If you can actually generate more income for yourself by breeding your snakes than you can with your regular day job, then by all means, take it on full-time. There are however, a lot of folks who jump into this business with both feet... and then complain about the temperature of the waters that they didn't test first. There isn't anything wrong with that either; you have the freedom to succeed as well as the freedom to fall on your face.

What medusah hit on, and what I agree with, is that you are far safer, and apt to be far happier with this business if you keep your goals in line with maintaining a hobby/business rather than if you try to eke out a living for yourself before you have been producing these animals for a long enough period of time to have spread your risk. Most of the "Big Boys" were breeding snakes as a hobby for a VERY long time before they ever decided to give up their day jobs, and that has a lot to do with their success. That also has a lot to do with them not obsessively stressing over the fluctuations of the market.

Nothing personal, Nick. Whatever you choose to do for yourself is fine.

My original post was just to remark that these repetitive market posts aren't new, and they aren't going away. I though medusah said something that was worthwhile.

Good luck all!

~Rebecca
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0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

LOL.....maybe you should just write a book with all your knowledge you seem to be passing around BRO
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Nick

Aren't all of my posts long as hell anyway??

~Rebecca
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0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

you got that right
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Nick

I have yet to figure out if you simply enjoy stirring the pot, or if you are just a very touchy person. For some reason, everytime you post it's like throwing gas on a fire.

Personally, I find that these conversations are a great way to pass a crappy day in the corporate world. Keep up the good work =)

-John

mission accomplished.....you have to mix it up every now and then. Here's what happens, If my work is getting the best of me I jump on KS and take out my aggression on the people who seem to think they know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING...J/K....maybe not....LOL

Take Care Man
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Nick

Another factor seems to be that the people complaining about the market are those that want to spend a few hundreds or thousands, breed those snakes, and make back what they spent and then some. Those that ride the waves of change are the innovators. Those that get the new stuff or take the risks of producing the new stuff. You can't expect to see a return if you are riding the second wave. That is true for most markets.

We all make analogies so here's another. A 1999 Dodge Dakota Sport 4X4 in 1999 was worth $20K. Today the same model is worth about $4K-$6K. However, the 2007 is going for $23K-$25K. If you are doing the same old stuff, you can expect it to drop. You have to be in the foreground if you are in it for the money. And that is still a chance you have to take.
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That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

I just want to set the record straight. My post yesterday about the market was more of asking a question rather than implying that the market is going to crash. Before I got the information I got yesterday I was curious if the dropping prices would inevitably wind up crashing the market. I am not trying to say it is crashing I was asking. I’m not angry nor do I want to try and start crap with anyone. I am just getting into breeding so I really have no clue as to how it works yet therefore it is not my place to imply anything. Like I said I am not angry just trying to clear my name. I don’t want to be one of them guys on kingsnake that nobody likes because they don’t know what they are talking about so I ask questions to try to learn as much as I can before I get into this stuff hardcore. And the very last thing I want to see id the market crashing. I hope this clears my name off the trouble maker list lol. Have a good one.
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B Sleeper

1.0 Chocolate Lab
0.1 ?? Normal Ball python (yet different)
1.0 04 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Pied
1.0 06 Pastel
0.? 07 Pos Het Albino (Momma has not laid the eggs yet)

No worries arcross the board man....this is a prime example how people say one thing and it is taken another.
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Nick

Well thats all that matters lol. Keep mixing it up bro it makes for good reading and helps me pass time at my boring uneventfull job. But hey it feeds the snakes right. Just dont mix things up too much, i would think it is better to have friends than enemys in this buisness just like every other one.
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B Sleeper

1.0 Chocolate Lab
0.1 ?? Normal Ball python (yet different)
1.0 04 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Pied
1.0 06 Pastel
0.? 07 Pos Het Albino (Momma has not laid the eggs yet)

"...we are taking about a snake that can routinely lay up to 30+ eggs a clutch."

Um, no. Not "routinely." 30 egg corn snake clutchs aren't all that common - the average is more like 14-16.

Tim

Third Eye

I am by no means an expert on ball python morphs, and constantly find myself having to look up current market prices whenever needed, and I am also not a regular on the ball python forums by any means. But, I do just want to add another point that I haven't seen posted on the "market crashing/not crashing" posts.
In the size of the total US and/or EU economies, ball pythons play such a small role that anyone studying the economies as a whole would laugh before studying the BP market. And for good reason. There aren't that many people involved, and there isn't that much money in the market. Yes, many people dump huge amounts into it, and there are more people jumping on the BP bandwagon, then, say, the cave dwelling rat snake bandwagon. But, as mentioned for other reasons, these snakes only produce 3-12 babies at a time. There is not much product, and therefore very little impact on the economy. Being such a small pocket of the economy also works to it's advantage. The only way the ball python market can collapse is if those inside cause it. If around 10% of the big breeders were to quit the game at the same time, and no one wanted to replace them, there may possibly be a major market fall out. The market isn't related to the real world outside of the obvious part that the member have to have money. New people don't need to join the craze to keep fueling it, there simply need to be casual pet owners to buy some of them. As long as big breeders don't freak out, the good small breeders keep an interest, and naive small breeders continue paying large sums for animals they will never profit from, the market will stand strong.
Part 2, basically, this isn't a business market. Here, people that lose money tend to throw more money in, those that break even put more money in, and those that make money put more money in. As long as it remains the same general pool of people, the prices of old goods will drop, as stated many times, and new goods will still be valuable, as stated many times. But until people simply get sick of paying for a new color (which I doubt any of us will,) the market WILL NOT drop.

Must not under-estimate market saturation. There are a minimal number of total keepers and breeders. Once everyone has a Spider ball No one will want them. Then the prices will drop a TON!! Thank God they are beautiful!! Another confounding issue is that BP's live forever!! I believe 67 years is the Record!! That is one very old spider in years to come. This cannot be about money because these snakes we are producing and keeping right now will out live us!! SO remember this when there is a glimmer of cash in the eye. One other limiting factor. LEGISLATION banning ownership of EVIL constrictors. Will not do a lot of good to produce animals when there is NO WHERE to market them! God Bless, Lee Van Hyfte

"In conclusion, take your market crash debates and burry them for good, it just won't happen. "

Wake up bro...it already crashed!

Co-doms are down 90% over the past couple years and the darn things still aren't selling for cash. Everyone wants to trade, but nobody is spending money. One look at the classifieds and you can find just about anything you want at any given time because the "market" has slowed to a crawl.

If that's not considered a "crash", I'd love to hear what your definition of the word is. Do co-dom morphs have to end up on the adoption classifieds? LOL

If you don't think the ball market has crashed, consider this...

If someone invested $10K on ball pythons three years ago and another guy put the $10K into leopard geckos, the guy with the leopard geckos could be practically making a living off of that investment by now. The guy with the ball pythons would be jumping through hoops and sifting through endless trade offers to sell a dozen $800 snakes.

Wake up...the days of the $10,000 ball python sale is over. Most co-dom morphs will be in the $300-500 range (just like pastels) within another couple years.

OK, I am sorry, but I have throw my 2 cents in.

As far as the Market for Balls crashing......It did, for last year. But just because something crashes, that doesn't mean it can't be rebuilt. We saw numerous cashes in pricing this year with many morphs that we didn't expect to see. Want the reason for that?

How many people 2 years to 4 years ago invested in BP Morphs?? Tons. So in 2006 we have all these new people in the market trying to sell their new animals, more breeders, more price competition. Simple as that, people invest, breed, want to make their money, so if they aren't selling at current market, they lower their price to beat everyone else, and that goes back and forth. That is the main reason for this so called "Crash". I mean 4 years ago, we new the main majority of everyone selling on the BP classifieds. NERD, Prehistoric, BEN SIEGEL....just to name a few. We know these people. Now how many are on the classifieds? We dont know these people yet, so buyers are nervous about buying from new people. And with all the "Bad Apples" out there, people are afraid to purchase Net wise. I did a trade with N.A.R.C in January, that deal took months! And we both had plenty of references. But we didn't know each other.

Basically, the market will always have it's moments. Just as they say...."Good cannot exist without bad." And in my opinion the market might recover this year, but I believe it needs one more year. Because all these people who invest have now found out that this business is harder than it looks. And some will quite, then you have more room for less competition.

Look at it from the Burmese Market. 5-10 Years ago, Burms were HOT. Everyone wanted them, the Albinos, Labs, Greens, and whatever else they could get. Then they start thinking, hey I can raise this pair and breed them and make me some money. Well, while they were sitting there thinking about that, so were 200 other people. Everyone gets the same idea, then they fight over who can sale cheaper. Everyone was breeding burms. You could get normals for $5 it was so bad. But now, you can get Normals that cheap, Albinos are going back up and so are the rest. What are the reasons for this?

Those very same people above who thought about the money. They also found out this business isn't as easy as some might think. Some quit, some make it, and some are content just to have the snakes. So the number of people breeding burms has gone back down a bit, and settled. There are new morphs on the horizon. So burms are rebounding. And I assume a few years that the same thing that has happened in the Balls this previous year will happen in the Burms again.

Let me know what you guys think.

Sorry if I ramble......I'm ADD. LOL.

P.S. Not kidding....lol.