Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone have any recent photos?
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Remember freedom of speech? Your children might not.

There arent any recent pictures of her... I dont really disturb her.. She is over 1500 grams and being bred.... The next pictures of her I will release will be her coiled around eggs!

B

i don't recall ever seeing one. is it a recessive or dom/co-dom gene?

I thought the Banana project was NERD's?
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Every one can be reasonable if you just find the right button.

NERD has one of the nicest collections there is.... but NERD does NOT have a Banana..... They have a Coral Albino... The only Banana's that are out there are owned by Will Slough, Doug Matusak, and myself...

B

The banana is either dominate or codominate, it is not recessive. There has yet to be a super produced from breeding a banana to a banana. We'll just have to wait and see!

This is a picture that was on the forum last year of a banana and a banana pastel. These are not my snakes or my picture (I wish they were), I'm simply posting this picture for those of you who have never seen a regular Banana before. These are juveniles, as they get older they tend to fade somewhat and develop black specks.

There has not been a Banana X Banana because there are NO male Bananas. They are all female. Most likely a sex-linked mutation.

There can still be a homozygous form of a sex-linked mutation. I am not as familiar with the inheritance model as I used to be so I'd do some additional research if you are interested in sex-linked traits.

I doubt it is a sex linked trait... Since there has only been 6 of these ladies produced... WAY to early to make that statement.

B

Certainly 6 girls in a row doesn't prove anything. The best we can do is try to see what has been disproved so far and what is still a possibility.

So, if female banana produces at least 1 female banana bred to an unrelated male then we know it can't be a z chromosome mutations so that is eliminated.

The only other sex linked possibility is that it's a w mutation. The elimination test there would be if any of the daughters of a banana have been normals. If it's a w mutation then all the daughters should be banana, if any normal daughters are produced by a banana as best I can figure that should eliminate it being sex linked.

The genetics of the Banana clown are:

Banana - Co Dominant
Clown - Recessive

So her genetics are both Co dom and Recessive...

As of right now there has yet to be a male Banana produced..

B

there hasn't been a male yet? Also, do you have any side by sides of a banana and a coral glow? One more Q; If you only have females than isn't it just proven Dominant
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Every one can be reasonable if you just find the right button.

Im sure there will be a male produced soon... Hopefully this season..

As far as the Co Dom, Dom Yes it is actually Dom as of right now BUT how could something that looks like a Banana not have a super form?? Lets just hope its not ANOTHER white snake....

B

Have you ever thought that maybe the mutation was sex-linked and that is why there has not been a male?

As I mentioned in an above post I am not up on sex-linked mutations as much as I used to be (did some genetics projects with one a couple of years ago). I personally think that the Coral Glow and Banana are the same mutation, and that the Whitesmoke male was the visual form of the mutation in males.
From what I've been told in reptiles females determine the sex of offspring.

Now, you can still have a homozygous form of a dominant sex-linked mutation (or co-dominant sex-linked mutation). The one I worked with was recessive, white eyes in fruit flies.

I hope I dont offend you by this post but.....

YELLOW is YELLOW

And

orange is orange.

Will named the banana BANANA because of the color of the animal is yellow like a banana....

IF you look Kev's Ball Python book you will clearly see the that his animals are orange..

They are very similar but again YELLLOW is YELLOW and ORANGE is ORANGE.

B

I think the difference may be like Cinnys and Black Pastels. Bred together they produce the same Super and each produces the same designer with slight differences, still they are compatible. Likewise "seems" to be the case with Lessers and Butters. I do believe a "Butter Daddy" was produced.
Just using some examples of different color that are the same/compatible mutations.

If it is sex-linked it will be very hard to prove if they are compatible.

The Coral Glow has the Whitesmoke thrown into the mix which makes a sex-linked claim more viable. However it is just a theory in both cases, and honestly while I used to know I couldn't tell you how it could be proven.

Kev's Whitesmoke was a male

That's what I thought. Because it produced female Coral Glows I think the normal males from that breeding may have been the ticket. One of them might have produced the Whitesmoke again bred to a Coral Glow female. Or maybe a Coral Glow female back to the Whitesmoke male. However he died.

The original whitesmoke was a male. It produced two female offspring. One of those DNS and the other one produced two offspring-both females. So there have been 4 female whitesmoke offspring descended from that male (NERD has the one adult female and it's offspring, which is a Bumblebee whitesmoke and we have the other female offspring which is a pastel-whitesmoke). In our book we have the Banana and the Whitesmoke as two different snakes until proven otherwise. My girl just shed, so I'll take an updated pic today and post it tonight.

Here is a photo taken last spring when she weighed about 300 g

It will be very interesting to see if we do eventually identify a sex linked snake mutation and how it will work.

Since female snakes are zw and males zz one scenario is that a mutation on the z chromosome might show up in females with only one copy and but take two copies in males.

So where ALL the female offspring of the whitesmoke male the coral glow type but none of the male offspring? If the white smoke was a male with two mutant z he would pass a mutant z to all his offspring. The female offspring would have a w from their mom so no normal z to cover up the mutant one and might then be coral glows. The male offspring would be carriers of the mutant z but since their mom gave them a normal z (making them males) they might not show it. When those carrier males are bred to a coral glow female each male offspring would have a 50% chance of being homozygous for the mutant z and being a whitesmoke like grandpa. The female offspring from this mutant z het male cross coral glow female breeding would each have a 50% chance of being coral glows but it’s the father’s contribution that would determine that. In this scenario no female coral glow could produce more coral glows without being bred to a male that had the gene, but all her sons would be carriers. However, even when bred to a normal the carrier males could produce 50% coral glow daughters. Pretty trippy if we ever do run into a z chromosome mutation that isn’t covered over by something on the w.

However, this falls apart on the banana so it's either wrong or the banana really is different. If banana was a z chromosome mutation mom banana could not give it to her daughters. It would have to be a w mutation (if sex linked at all of course) and then there could never be a male carrier or the equivalent of a white smoke male. The test for if banana could be a w mutation would be if ALL the daughters of a banana are bananas. Has a banana ever produced a daughter that wasn’t banana?

Even if the breeding results don’t yet disprove either possibility (coral glow being a z mutation and banana being a w mutation) it would be difficult to prove either. There may not have been enough breedings yet and even if we are seeing some sex trending in either project it might just be chance.

The offspring "coral glow" from the Whitesmoke-already did produce "coral glows" when bred to a totally unrelated bumblebee (or maybe wannabee) male. So it does not need to be bred to a related male to produce more of them. Do people think the offspring of the whitesmoke is a different snake than the whitesmoke and that is why they call it a "coral glow" and not a whitesmoke-(I was always under the impression that Kevin just changed the name because he wanted to).

in some way. Like the Platty Daddy and lessers.
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Every one can be reasonable if you just find the right button.

Coral glow can’t be a w mutation because the original white smoke male didn’t have a w to give. If coral glow female x unrelated male produced female coral glows then it can’t be a z mutation because the offspring that got her z are males.

Given the report that coral glow female x unrelated male produces coral glows the only way it could still be sex linked if none of the female offspring and all of the male offspring where coral glows from this breeding. In that scenario the het males would have to show as coral glows and maybe the white smoke was a homozygous or maybe he was just an older coral glow (het).

Where all of the white smoke male’s offspring of both sexes coral glows? If not, he couldn't have been homozygous for a z mutation causing coral glow in both males and females. If it showed up in het males that would be sort of lame as a sex linked trait goes as it would act more like a non sex linked dominant mutation with the exception of females not being able to pass it to their daughters. But if female coral glow x unrelated male produces female coral glow that pretty much shuts the door on coral glow being sex linked as best I can figure.

Question?

I used to breed Lovebirds. Lutino is a Sex-Linked recessive mutation. I use Lovebirds because they have a similar patterning with the Female determining gender. Any way. A few different things: If a Lutino female is bred to a normal male, 50% of the males will be Het and 50% will be Normal. All of the Females will be Normal. If a Het male is bred to a Lutino Female, 50% of the males are Yellow, and 50% of the Females are yellow. The other 50% of males are Het and the other Females are normal. If a Visual Lutino Male is bred to a Normal Female All males are het and All Females are Visual Lutino.

That is for nomal "Green Series" Lovebirds. There is a "Blue Series" as well. Same reaction but a muted, more bluish color. If a "Blue Series" is bred to a "Green Series" the same pattern applies with subtle differences and the color's intensity varies i.e. the difference in yellow and orange in the Whte Smoke and the Coral Glow(I believe those are the right examples).

There are also two seperate variables that add to this. The "Dark Factor" and the "Violet Factor". They are non-sex linked factors that also alter the intensity and variations of colors. There are two of each factor. An individual can receive none, 1, or 2. With the "Dark Factor", an individual can be normal, dark green, or grey. With the "Violet Factor" the individual can be normal, blue, or violet. I won't bore you with what happens if you combine the 2 or add them to the Lutino mutation. I think you get the point.

To tie it all into Balls, You may be looking at the same thing in several similar mutations, but not be seeing all of the aspects availble. The WhiteSmoke may be a Coral Glow with a "Light Factor" or 2. That's why none of the offspring resemble the original.

But I haven't played with he Ball Morphs as much as the Lovebirds. Seems it takes a little longer to reproduce and there are just SOOOO many to choose from.

Hope this helps or adds a little to the conversation.
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That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

Thanks!

It is very helpful and I think birds are an excellent model as their genders are the same zw female and zz male as snakes. Interesting that (I think) you are referring to lutino as yellow and in cats and hamsters it’s a sex linked yellow gene that is used to make calicos and the ball python mutations we are talking about are rather yellow. However it does seem like the scattered breeding results reported so far for the ball python mutations seems to rule them out for being sex linked if I’m understanding right.

However I'm having a little trouble following the genetics of the following.

"If a Lutino female is bred to a normal male, 50% of the males will be Het and 50% will be Normal. All of the Females will be Normal."

So is the lutino mutation on the z chromosome? It would seem that if so a female with it would give it to all of her sons, not just half of them. It's the z chromosome from her that is making them sons.

"If a Het male is bred to a Lutino Female, 50% of the males are Yellow, and 50% of the Females are yellow. The other 50% of males are Het and the other Females are normal."

So the yellow males are homozygous for the mutant lutino z, right? If so I think I'm following this.

"If a Visual Lutino Male is bred to a Normal Female All males are het and All Females are Visual Lutino."

So the visual male is homozygous for the lutino mutant z so all of his offspring get one copy and that's enough to make a visual lutino female and a het male.

So the only part I can reconcile to it being a z chromosome mutation is the female lutino only producing 50% het males and not 100% het males.

You're right, I was drinking at the time. 100% het males if the female is visual. Where was I when I drew that out?

Sorry bout that.
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That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

I read up a little on the lutino love birds and that does sound like a good source for us to get examples if a sex linked mutation is ever found in ball pythons.

I also found a site with info on an apparent Z mutation in snakes.

Basically in a couple of water snake species by investigating the variations in enzymes they think they found evidence that the gene responsible is on the Z chromosome. In this case it looks like a commonly seen mechanism is in place that compensates for a female only having one Z so that her function is the same as a male with two. This means that it might be possible for a sex linked visual mutation to look the same in males and females (or without the compensation they might look different).

It’s also interesting that they had trouble being sure of sexing. Maybe there are some snakes that are in-between.
Sex-Linked Inheritance of Fumarate Hydratase Alleles in Natricine Snakes

Pigeons have nice examples of sex-linked mutant genes, too. For example, the b, St, and d loci.

I have a theory that brindle in the black rat snake is a sex-linked mutant. Males are obviously lighter in color than females, in the few pictures I've seen, and females are obviously lighter than normals of either sex. Pilgrim geese (a domestic breed) and pigeons have sex-linked mutants that have the same effect.

Paul Hollander
Pigeon mutant gene list

What a beautiful ball, I would love to have one of those , good work indeed.

Tracy I tried to find out, but do you know if ALL the Whitesmoke's female offspring were Coral Glows? If there are normal females from the Whitesmoke I don't think the sex-linked inheritance works. However I do think a Coral Glow or Banana can have normal female offspring and it still be sex linked.

I always thought the Whitesmoke and the Coral Glow were two different mutations. Based on the colors it seems to prove that. I guess it would be better to say two different types of the same mutation. Similar maybe to homozygous and heterozygous animals of a co-dominant mutation. Same mutation but, different morphs.
Just trying to make sure I clearify myself.

Here's a pic of Doug Matuszak's adult female.
I took this photo last winter.

Tim

Third Eye

This is one of the Banana het clown's

B

Hey Brian, what did you breed to her? Evan

its crazy how they have spots like a hog island boa.