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Hey Rick (from way down below)

bobhansen Feb 24, 2007 09:05 AM

Rick:

I am reluctant to speculate about how various studies will pan out with respect to mexicana kingsnake relationships, in part because I am involved with one such project. But I can at least try to frame the discussion. Studies such as those by Bryson et al. (2005, 2007—see the SierraHerps.com website for links to those papers) and stuff that is in progress generally seek to reveal the “one true history” of the group. When researchers analyze characters—whether gene sequences or morphological traits—they develop an “estimate” of the group’s history; this is not arbitrary or capricious, but is based on evidence using accepted analytical procedures. Different kinds of evidence can yield “estimates” that might not always agree with one another. For example, if we relied on color pattern characters to estimate phylogeny in modern coralsnakes, we would develop a picture of the group’s evolution that is very different from one arrived at from an analysis of gene sequence data. Of course, we now know that for many groups of snakes, color and pattern are not especially reliable indicators of relationship.

With respect to mexicana kingsnakes, there are several lines of inquiry:

1. How many species are there? (And, despite some differences among evolutionary biologists about the definition of “species,” the vast majority of species of herps would be recognized as distinct species no matter which definition was being used.)
2. Related to #1, what to do about subspecies? The use of “subspecies” in modern herpetological taxonomy has declined as our understanding of speciation and population genetics has increased. As more and more groups of herps are examined in greater detail (more specimens available, examined using more sophisticated techniques…e.g., gene sequences), it has become apparent that things formerly regarded as subspecies of wide-ranging groups are in fact better categorized as distinct species. This topic is much more involved (and interesting) than these few words can convey, but you get the idea. Examples include the tiger salamander complex or the gopher snake/bullsnake complex.
3. In addition to knowing how many species comprise this group, who is related to whom? This is where branching diagrams come into play to represent relationships among various species. We want to know which species last shared a common ancestor. Central to this issue is the relationships between various mexicana-type snakes and nearby triangulum-complex snakes. Talk about a can of worms!
4. Are there independent lines of evidence to support the preferred phylogeny? For example, there may be geological, paleontological, or climatic data that support or refute particular evolutionary scenarios.
5. Lastly, evolutionary biologists seek to understand the processes by which populations (or lineages) of these snakes have become genetically distinctive. Which historical forces were at play in generating the particular patterns of diversification we see? In mexicana kings, while much of the group’s structure could be explained by vicariance (= range fragmentation), there might be places where formerly separated groups have reconnected and now freely exchange genes.

As of this moment, we have a phylogeny (Bryson et al. 2007) that is based on mitochondrial gene sequences. What is needed is an independent estimate based on nuclear genes. And of course obtaining specimens from critical “in-between” areas could be really helpful in this regard. Such areas are noted on the range map on my website…you can see the areas from which no specimens are known. So, in closing, I’d just reiterate my reluctance to speculate on how the last chapter of the book will read, but will instead wait for the evidence to be uncovered…and then we’ll just follow the trail of wherever it leads!

Cheers,

Bob

Replies (8)

Tony D Feb 24, 2007 11:18 AM

Good post Bob. My second read of the papers as well as a bit of an online refresher of the terms is helping to put things into perspective.

Rick Millspaugh Feb 25, 2007 12:35 PM

Even though you are unwilling to speculate nearly enough for my liking (LOL). I understand though, as you have your own research project underway and don’t want “to let the cat out of the bag” too soon. Perhaps I can buy you a couple beers sometime (I’ll drink ice tea) and get more conjecture (more beers = more conjecture). It will all be very interesting to see how it finally shakes out. With the inclusion of some Milk Snakes in the gene pool it opens a huge can of worms (there’s a group with way too many sub-species IMHO - i.e. Central American group)

Color and pattern traits are so easy to key in on that it is difficult for us commoners to remember how rapidly these traits change in a group. In the lower CA desert only 500 years ago the entire place was underwater but is now heavily populated with herps. One that stands out for me as illustrating how rabidly color evolves is the Coach Whips. In the lower desert they are a very, very pale pink sandy color, the area is covered in very pale colored sand and rock with sparse vegetation. To the North, the population is a bright deep red/brown and to the east the population is very dark, almost melanistic. So, in less than 500 years, the color evolved to match the environment as the snakes repopulated the once flooded area.

Anyway, enough of my inane two cents; do you really think you can get L. leonis to stick? I kind of like it.

Thanks again and dang nice pic too! You guys that take great photos suck (I’m kidding).

Here's me pretending to know what I'm doing, taken at noon yesterday. I'm thinking of taking an umbrella with me so the photos won't be in the harsh direct sunlight. I also only use an old 4 mp when bouncing around in the rocks.

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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

bobhansen Feb 25, 2007 01:16 PM

Rick:

You are quite welcome. As for speculating or not, I honestly don't know how some pieces of the puzzle are going to fit, so it's not just a matter of letting cats out of the bag. First, we must find the bag!

As for the name "leonis" sticking or not...it's just a matter of following the rules for zoological nomenclature that govern usage of names based on priority (i.e., which name came first). Certainly that name has precedence over "thayeri" (unless somehow it's revealed that those two names apply to two different kinds of snakes!).

Nice that you have ruber living in your backyard. We have oreganus here...we quit having Easter egg hunts for the kids when a young oreganus showed up in the garden one Easter Sunday. But there are plenty of 'em here on the ranch. Don't discount the usefulness of an umbrella for helping your photo lighting. I carry a small black one in my field vehicle and it comes in quite handy, as you can see here. This photo shows Brad Alexander (on left) and me photographing a rosy boa in the Providence Mountains last year, while my son Eric (aka Shade Boy) holds the umbrella to block the sun. Second pic shows the result...nice, soft light with fill flash; this image will be published in the forthcoming book "Biology of Boas and Pythons".

cheers,

bob

MichelleRogers Feb 25, 2007 01:31 PM

Thank you for all the info and the photo's. I personally can't wait to see how all this pan's out. I have a feeling we are all in for a big surprise.
take care,

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Michelle

Rick Millspaugh Feb 25, 2007 01:50 PM

I have looked many times over the last 30ish years for a Providence Mountain Rosy (if it's the ones I'm thinging about - central Mojave?). A day time flip?

I was serious about the umbrella, noon sun is very harsh and wrecks the photos. Just one more thing to drag up the hill though and I'm not getting any younger (or skinnier).

I watch where I put my feet in the yard, both front and back and am carefull pulling weeds too. Most the time it's a little racer, a gopher, or a king, but those little helleri blend right in and don't move until it's almost too late.
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

MichelleRogers Feb 25, 2007 01:26 PM

np
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Michelle

Rick Millspaugh Feb 25, 2007 01:57 PM

Photo's not great, but the snake was cool.
As first seen:

They are about the most common find this time of year. I've almost stepped on them trying to get a photo of a differnt one. Here's a little "crack" king from the same place

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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

KenCasstevens Feb 26, 2007 02:01 PM

Thanks for all the intriguing information. Keep it comming. Those are some awesome pics also guys.
Ken

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