Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it just me or does rat snake taxonomy make no sense? The genus Elaphe seems to have species from 3 or 4 different continents dumped in it. It doesn't make much sense to me. Should the ladder rat (It's Elaphe, right) be in the same genus as the black rat? Should the European rats be in the same genus as a Japanese rat?

And which is more closely related? A texas rat and a bullsnake, or a texas rat and a European rat snake? Or a Texas rat and a Trans-pecos rat snake?

If it were up to me, I would put corns, obsoleta, and fox snakes in one genus and put those European and Asian rats in their own genuses. But I'm no expert.

Someone should do genetic testing and find out which ones are the most closely related.

But it's still a matter of some debate I guess.
I used to own three species of Elaphe, now I own none. Darn if I can remember what they're called though.

... is the genus for all North American rat snakes formerly known as Elaphe.

So:

Pantherophis g. guttatus (corn snake)
Pantherophis o. obsoletus (black rat snake)
Pantherophis obsoletus spiloides (grey rat snake)
Pantherophis vulpinus spp. (fox snakes)
etc.

I'm thankful that they've separated the North American species from the Eurasians.

>>But it's still a matter of some debate I guess.
>>I used to own three species of Elaphe, now I own none. Darn if I can remember what they're called though.
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tricia

Not all the North American species of Elaphe were moved to Panterophis; the same paper which suggested that change also moved Elaphe flavirufa to Pseudelaphe flavirufa.

/Sundberg

Flavirufa isn't exactly a North American snake, it is Latin American. It is native to eastern Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean islands of Honduras.

>>Not all the North American species of Elaphe were moved to Panterophis; the same paper which suggested that change also moved Elaphe flavirufa to Pseudelaphe flavirufa.
>>
>>/Sundberg
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tricia

n/m
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Mark

>>n/m
>>-----
>>Mark

Depends on the gender of the generic name - Elaphe is feminine, Pantherophis masculine, so if you call it Elaphe, it's obsoleta, if you call it Pantherophis, it's obsoletus.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW

WW Home

There has been a lot of changes recently. Elaphe was split into a large number of genera. However, not everyone thinks the changes were warranted as you can see if you scroll down in this forum to a post made a week ago. The subject is "Pantherophis, a preliminary review".

The same discussion is going on in the Taxonomy forum as well. It's my guess the next couple of years will clarify the matter.

The papers in which the recent changes were made;

Notker Helfenberger
Phylogenetic relationships of Old World ratsnakes based on visceral organ topography, osteology, and allozyme variation.
Russion Journal of Herpetology, supplement, 2001, pp 1-62.

Urs Utiger et al.
Molecular systematics and phylogeny of Old and New World ratsnakes, Elaphe Auct., and related genera (Reptilia, Squamata, Colubridae).
Russian Journal of Herpetology, 2002, 9(2): pp 105-124.

/Sundberg

So Elaphe is in kind of a transitional phase, where the new genera aren't fully accepted yet but neither are the old ones...