Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Wow, it is hard to believe it is already the first of March. It won't be long and everyone's boxies will be out of hibernation and the fun will start. Anyway.....I was just wondering if anyone had come to a conclusion about what kind of boxie Squirt is. He/she has 4 toes on the back feet, so I am not sure if he is a 3-toed or not. Anyway......if any of you can help me out, I would appreciate it. I posted these pictures on another post several days ago but have put it on here also.

I have tried looking up pictures of turtles to see if I can find one like Squirt, but so far haven't had any luck with it. Hopefully someone can help me out here. You all have a good day! Take care............9boxies

No idea other than Squirt's plastron doesn't look like my ornates, even though it was suggested in a post that Squirt looked like an ornate.
Though I have yet to see a good comparison pictures of desert box and an ornate box's plastrons.

Silly question... how the heck do you get them to hold still on their backs long enough to get a picture? Mine will not tolerate it at all, and generally hate staying still as well.

This cheap book I bought shows photos of male & female 3 toed plastrons & they have no markings on the the plastron at all.
The plastron on Squirt looks like the plastron on my baby Kibbles.
Kibbles is T.o. ornata or T.o. luteola.. I don't know which.
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PHRatz

http://www.chelonia.org/TornataleutolleftornatarightJG2.jpg
Desert Box Turtle on left Ornate Box Turtle on right

the pic quality could be a little better, but you can see the difference.

I've probably missed that one over and over every time I searched. lol
My male and the female looked like neither of those(plastron pattern isn't as bold or as light), and the babies pattern hasn't fully grown out on their plastrons at all. Who knows what the local population variants in pattern could be. There's a wild female I see during the summer that's gorgeous, she's very light with way more stripes than any of mine have.

The picture does suggest that maybe Squirt could be a desert.

>>http://www.chelonia.org/TornataleutolleftornatarightJG2.jpg
>>Desert Box Turtle on left Ornate Box Turtle on right
>>
>>
>>the pic quality could be a little better, but you can see the difference.

That's my problem. Except for Janie who's so obviously T.o.ornata the rest of mine never match any of the photos I see online or in books.
I always say I have ornates then leave it at that
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PHRatz

This site has good comparisons of the subspecies plastrons and carapaces.
http://www.pogospals.com/Box Turtle Subspecies.html

There is only one example of each subspecies though.
All animals are adults.

Well, I have to agree that the plastron of the Florida Box turtle looks most like Squirt's, but the carapace doesn't. Oh well, I know Squirt is a box turtle and that I will take care of him and hope that he lives a happy and long life. That is all that really matters I suppose. I guess I really better read about Florida boxies though and see if their diet is different from my ornates and if I should be adding something different to his.

I hope everyone has a good weekend! Take care! .........9boxies

The plastron looked like the Florida to me too. You're right the carapace is something else. COuld you get a shot of his face from the side and front? It is hard to tell what that looks like in the photos.

Your little guy is gorgeous though!

That's a neat site, thanks for posting it.
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PHRatz

should my baby box show plastron patterns as seen in these pics of older turtles? My baby box does NOT have a plastron like the one of the 3-toed in the pic.

Every box turtle has a slightly different pattern, so one can't really say what a baby turtle 'should' have.

Here are some of my ornate juvies.
They are 2 1/2 years old.

I'd still say ornate. The plastron is definately
more like an ornates.
Chompers and friends

>>I'd still say ornate. The plastron is definately
>>more like an ornates.

My Chip (the one I got after he was taken to a vet for being busted up by a dog) is such a dull looking turtle, you'd think he's not so ornate but he is.
His carapace is very dull and pardon the break in the plastron in this photo.. but you can see how ornate it is:
This is why I always just say ornate because it gets too confusing for me to go any further. lol

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PHRatz

I don't believe I've seen that top picture of Chip before! Shocking. It's amazing how tough they are, and how well you and your vet have cared for him.

>>I don't believe I've seen that top picture of Chip before! Shocking. It's amazing how tough they are, and how well you and your vet have cared for him.

Thanks! He has amazed me with his determination to live, and by how tough he is. I especially adore him now because of that.

In the beginning I really did not hold out much hope that he would even live. That photo was taken very soon before he saw the vet & we knew he was infected. He spent the next week in bandages taking antibiotics, fluids, and with me having to soak him in chlorhexdine solution then slathering Novalsan ointment on him daily. Then the vet put the body cast on him. He spent about 3 weeks in very critical condition before becoming more stable, the feeding tube really stablized him a lot.
Through all that I just could not get over how tough that boy is!

Even though he's damaged I can still see that even before this happened to him he was already a very dull looking turtle except for the red on his legs & the head being yellow. Hobo has a green head but Chip's skin is yellow like the sulcata & the yellow mud, I think that's very pretty.
He's ornate but luteola or ornata? I think luteola.. but since those of mine I think are luteola never match photos on websites & in books, I just stick with saying ornate. LOL
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PHRatz

Ratz, knowing in general where you live, all literature explaining the differences between ornata and luteola that I've read say the same thing about your area...you're right smack in the middle of the "intergrade" zone. It's unlikely that any of your turtles could be described as true luteola or ornata, based on the "definitions". They'll likely show characteristics of both, which is what I can see from the pictures of your turtles. Either way, they're very pretty and seem to have great personalities!

Thanks Ken,
I know we've talked about this before.. I tend to believe what you're saying here. They're "intergrade" turtles although I do at times see those like my Janie who seem to have the classic markings of the typical T.o.ornata.. when I see that I have no doubts but the rest of them that I run across most are not like that at all.
BUT even so, I do get to see some very unusual markings on turtles that I think are very unique.
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PHRatz

Hi,
You have a Florida/Gulf Coast cross. I have 2 myself and they look like yours does. Mine though have Florida heads, where yours has a more Gulf Coast. They do occur naturally in Northern Florida.

Dan

I always thought that one way to tell the difference between western box turtle (T. ornata) and Florida box turtles (T.c. bauri) was to look for a keel.

According to the texts that I have, T.ornata doesn't have a keel, whereas T.c. bauri does. It's not easy to tell from the photos provided, but I don't see a keel, which would put this little guy in the T. ornata camp.

I'm confused about Squirt's background. You said that you found him/her in your backyard? I'm sorry, I haven't been able to keep up.

In what State was squirt found? You mentioned that he may have been left over from the collection of the previous owner of your home. Do you know what types of box turtles the previous owner had?

This may help direct us.

Kensopher.....in reply to your post about how I acquired Squirt....my daughter teaches school. One day a parent brought Squirt to school and gave to my daughter, to give to me, because she knew I had turtles and wanted to save this one from being killed by the pet dog.

The parent had inherited the turtles when she bought the house as the previous owner did not want to uproot the turtles from the only home they had known. Anyway......the family dog (not accustomed to sharing a yard with turtles) decided they were a walking "buffet", or the baby turtles were I should say! I think he probably learned the hard way not to mess with the adult turtles though. Oh, and Squirt was in West Texas.

All of my other turtles came out of my husband's aunt's yard. Unlike Squirt's situation, had I left them there they would more than likely all be dead today as the house remains vacant and has been for 7 years now. Wow......where has the time gone to? Oh, I can't forget "my" Hobo! The turtle I borrowed the name for from PHRatz Hobo! He was found in my daughter's backyard being cornered by her Huskies.

And then there is the still un-named box I bought from the groomer/pet shop. Needless to say....you guys were right! They have 5 more (larger than the one I got from them) I do believe they are getting them from the desert right down the road from them as the land is being cleared for more homes and commercial use. What a shame!! I just close my eyes now when I take the dog in there to be groomed. Other wise.....I might just not make it out of the place with only the dog! I'm sorry.....I just have a big heart that wants to save all of God's creatures! But I promise I won't buy any more from them. ..........9boxies

Thanks for the reply. In regards to turtles from an unknown source, determining the species/subspecies is impossible without bloodwork and genetic testing. Your turtle may not be indigenous to West Texas, especially due to the fact that it was found in a backyard.

Having said that ...I think this one is fairly straight forward. I'd be willing to bet money that this is a Desert Box turtle (T.o.luteola). Structurally, it doesn't really show any traits of T.carolina. (Steph alluded to this). It appears to be an unusually pretty Desert. I have some from El Paso lineage. The adults are waking up, so I can try to snap some pictures. I've been crazy busy, but I'll try to get some posted up here.

If you're near the Trans Pecos region...the box turtles there can show traits of both ornata and luteola.

Oh, and I spoke briefly with an exotic Veterinarian friend of mine. The magenta spots shown on Squirt are fairly common with certain vitamin deficiencies. Even with proper diet, vitamin deficiencies can occur due to other factors...inestinal parasites for one. I'd have Squirt checked out if I were you. I hope this helps, I never got to reply to your question a while back.