Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering...kings and milks are supposed to be immune to the venoms of their native Crotalids, correct? Do you think that immunity applies to all pit vipers? For example, could an eastern king eat a fer-de-lance, and a black milk eat a copperhead, (and be fine if bitten)? Are milksnakes actually even immune to the venom, because I've only ever heard of kingsnakes eating rattlesnakes, copperheads, etc? This is subject of great interest to me, and I wish there was more research done in this area. Thanks,

-Mack

Did you know Lampropeltis aren't immune to the venom/saliva of regal ringneck snakes?

Just a interesting little fact there for you.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com

I caught a small Sonoran Gopher snake (Arizona) in the mid 1990's that eaten a small Arizona Black rattlesnake. I took the small gopher snake home because it had this huge lump in it. Way too small of a gopher snake to have eaten a big pack rat. About 4 days later it regurged a rattlesnake head and about 6 inches of backbone.

So I know personally that Sonoran Gopher snakes can eat rattlesnakes.

I do not think that they are immune to the venom though (speculating here).

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

added, I've seen a large striped racer eating a small rattler in the field, and have heard of coachwhips doing the same. And, it is known that young lampropeltis will fit the taste buds of ringneck snakes and racers as well. And don't even start with Indigo snakes..

I guess the point is, ophiophagy (spellin??) is not relegated to Lampropeltis alone. Doesn't answer your question on venom immunity though.
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Mark

From my knowledge as a Bio teacher, I know that they are not truly immune to venom, rather they have an extremely high tolerance. There are still cases of kings getting bitten near the head or heart and succumbing to venom.

Venom tolerance is a product of co-evolution. A good example of how this works would be cheetahs and gazelles. The faster gazelles are the ones that typically live long enough to produce offspring, passing on the genes. The faster cheetahs are the ones that are successful enough hunters to live and pass on their genes. Its called the "Red Queen" hypothesis. You have to keep evolving just to stay where youre at.

Venom tolerance in kings would work the same way. The kings that somehow (thru genetics) had greater venom tolerance were able to prey on a wider range of snakes, and were therefore be more successful. They would pass this to their offspring.

I would suspect that venom tolerance is specialized and would therefore apply to venomous snakes native to the kings natural habitat. In other words, there would be no evolutionary advantage to a NA king species having venom tolerance to a SA pit species (unless at some point there range overlapped).

So just speaking from that standpoint (and claiming no real expertise) I would guess that venom tolerance would not apply to widely separated species (unless the venom was chemically very similar to the venom of the pit species in the king's home range).
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0.1 Amelanistic Corn
0.1 Tarahumara Mtn. King
1.2 Thayeri
0.1 Gray Banded King
0.2 Kunasir Island Rats
0.1 White Oak Gray Rat
0.1 Baird's Rat
0.1 Everglades Rat
1.2 Trans Pecos Rats

Kings have venom-neutralizing factors in their blood serum. I supose Kings could still succumb to a well placed fang in a vital organ.

What about milk snakes? And what if the snake was not bitten, but just ate the pit viper. Would the venom be toxic then? I asked about this because I had seen a picture of a mussurana killing a western diamondback, which certainly isn't from the the snake's natural habitat.

-Mack

If the snake isnt bitten, the venom wont matter. It will be broken down and digested along with the rest of the snake. Its toxicity comes from being directly injected into the blood.
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0.1 Amelanistic Corn
0.1 Tarahumara Mtn. King
1.2 Thayeri
0.1 Gray Banded King
0.2 Kunasir Island Rats
0.1 White Oak Gray Rat
0.1 Baird's Rat
0.1 Everglades Rat
1.2 Trans Pecos Rats

"What about milk snakes? And what if the snake was not bitten, but just ate the pit viper. Would the venom be toxic then? I asked about this because I had seen a picture of a mussurana killing a western diamondback, which certainly isn't from the the snake's natural habitat.

-Mack"

The venom is mostly protein. The pH of the stomach would make short work of it. Assuming you had no open sores or cuts in the mouth which would allow introduction into the bloodstream, you could ingest hemolytic venom as well without ill-effect.

A "Lampropeltis", or any snake(even humans) can allegedly ingest the toxic venom of ANY snake species, as long as there are no ulcers,or other way of the venom to get directly into the blood. Strangely enough, if a venomous snake accidentally bites itself, or is bitten by another of the same species, they can easily die . As far as I know, Lampropeltis is only immune(tolerant)to Crotalids in North America...........this being said, my best guess would be that if a Fer-de-lance(Bothrops), or a Bushmaster(Lachesis) envenomated a Lampropeltis with any substancial amount of venom, it would likely be doomed, although it could certainly be eaten with no ill effects.
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!