Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

well, since the original post from Nir was deleted I will repost my pics. Feel free to ask any questions.
These snakes are no intergrades. They do not have a snout band and not the typical tricolor stuarti would display, also scale and RBR counts do fit to gaigae. The animals are F1 from Costa Rica (Miramar at an elevation of 1500 m).

Gerrit

On this pic they are young adults from 2003/04 with a size of 3-4 ft. As you can see they do not turn completely black and have tangerine/apricot/orange coloration. Below is another ssp. that also shows the coloration.

Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis - Milks and Kings

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

Like I said in the other thread that was deleted.

Those are some stunning animals! Very strange for L. t. gaigeae. It would be amazing to document the variabilty of this ssp. on the field.

Good luck with breeding those!
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Nicholas Bertrand

Hi Gerrit,

I didn't see the previous thread,so I don't know what went on. It's interesting to see that all gaigeae don't blacken. I'm assuming you know that a lot of us try to selectively breed to get the blackest Indigo like Gaigeae possible here? I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I mean no offense. For me, raising up an animal that even shows traces of the banding or light color around the face is something I am striving to avoid. If you don't mind me asking, what interests you in an animal that does not have clear and distinct markings? Is it that locality is more the thrust of your keeping rather than how the animal looks? I ask because I've noticed over the years that pics from keepers from Europe that you find in older books many times look nothing like the sterotypical animal here that we are used to seeing. Thanks and good luck with your herping.
Bob

Hi Bob,

I don't alow my animals watching TV and drinking from a bottle, that is the first difference between you and my animals. LOL

For the selective breeding, since mine are F1 from wildcaught animals I have not selectivly bred them till yet.

How many bloodlines from Black Milks with locality info do you have in the states?

I'm driven by keeping locality animals, that's all. And all Lampros do look nice to me.

Best regards,
Gerrit

Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis - Milks and Kings

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

>>Hi Bob,
>>
>>I don't alow my animals watching TV and drinking from a bottle, that is the first difference between you and my animals. LOL
>>
>>For the selective breeding, since mine are F1 from wildcaught animals I have not selectivly bred them till yet.
>>
>>How many bloodlines from Black Milks with locality info do you have in the states?
>>
>>I'm driven by keeping locality animals, that's all. And all Lampros do look nice to me.
>>
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Gerrit
>>
>>Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis - Milks and Kings
>>
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>>http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

US are intergrades?Just curious.And what are they mixed with?
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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

I don't think Gerrit is saying or implying that at all. Probably 99% of all the black milksnakes in the U.S. are either San Antonio Zoo or Central Florida Zoo stock (the Mark Bell line is Central Florida Zoo lineage). Both of the zoo stocks came out of Costa Rica.

Gerrit just has a different locality of black milksnake. And I agree that locality stock is important and indeed harder to come by these days than in the past.....especially in this age of cotton candy- bubblegum morphs that you can see three different subspecies all mixed into one

That doesn't make the two known black milksnake zoo stocks any less important. Gerrit just knows where AT in Costa Rica his came from.

Scott

Hi,

couldn't have sad it better then Scott. That's what I wanted to make you think about. In my oppinion 2 bloodlines with no further locality info then just Costa Rica (off course bettern then no info) are not enough in this hobby .

Have fun,

Gerrit
Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis - Milks and Kings

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

Hi Gerrit,

Your right, I should not let them have all that sugar. They mostly watch animal planet episodes though.LOL Most of my colony are from the San Antonio zoo line. I guess I liken what I am doing to sort of like what goes on with show dogs and tropical fish. It's not better than locality, just my direction I'm going in. I wish you the best and thanks for sharing the pics.

Bob

Hi Bob,

color breeding is of course nice, unfortunally I had no offspring till yet, so I hope mine drop a striped anery or at least some hypos and albinos I can go on with to establish this with backbreeding. But if they do not and drop just normall babies I will like them aswell cause they are nice. I also would like to work with the otehr total black lines and hope I will do pretty soon!

Have fun,

Gerrit
Koenigsnattern - Lampropeltis - Milks and Kings

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

Thanks Gerrit! my best to you too and your projects.

Hi Gerrit,......Those are some very unique looking "gaigae" you have!! The dorsal scales look pretty big in the photos(as they should), are their 19 rows at mid-body?....they sure do look alot like "andesiana" in the head area, don't you agree?........ certainly I'm not saying they are Andeans, or even influenced by them, as I've bred many species of milks myself, but are you absolutely sure they were collected from Miramar?.....good luck with the breeding project!...........Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Hi Doug,

yes I'm absolutely sure about their origin, they were collected by a friend in the 80's. The animals also do have the meristic data of gaigae and the red body rings number fits to gaigae but never andesiana. You also see those snout pattern in some SA Zoo stock but they also do have the snout band stuarti shows.

Gerrit
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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

n/p
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

The animals are F1 from Costa Rica (Miramar at an elevation of 1500 m).

I didn't think there were any legal exports out of Costa Rica since the 1980s. How/When did this occur?

I actually would like to see a map of color patterns versus altitude and latitude. Do the blackest snakes come from the highest elevations or do they come from further south in CR and Panama?

Here's a DOR from high elevations in Panama -

I haven't ever seen other pics of Black Milks other than captive animals. Are there any other photos of wild caught gaigeae?
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

If you search the forum at www.fieldherpforum.com, there is a nice picture of a live wild black milk...
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Nicholas Bertrand