Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am looking to build a rat breeder rack and was wanting to know and want to know key things I need to look into to make it a one time buy kind of thing. Of course I have some questions about it so here are a few.

1.If I planned on having at the most seven litters or so during litter season for the snakes, how many tubs would I use?

2.I don't mind feeding them everyday but how can I give them a constant supply of water they can't mess with teeth wise?

3.How do you build feed troughs so no food is wasted or soiled?

4.What kind of material do you use to cover the tubs cuz it appears like a mesh or something?

Bob

Hey Bob,

I just got done setting up 3 groups of 1.5 mice and 2 groups of 1.4 rats. I have a friend in town who breeds lots of rodents and I followed his setup. All you need for cages is a 30qt rubbermaid or similar tub, hardware mesh (I used 1/2 inch but I'm going to have to use smaller for the lid that houses my small mice), and some 8 foot lengths of 2x2 pine or fur. Fur is easier to work with as far as the nail gun and staple gun go. I just made my own feeders from the same hardware mesh as you can see in the picture. For watering I purchased the valves, t-connectors, and hose from www.agselect.com/ED/Category.cfm?&DID=11&CATID=12
I just used a plastic bucket for the water bin and purchased the valve that connects the tube to the water bin from agselect. I purchased a 50lb bag of rodent lab food and a 7.5 CU FT bag of pine shavings from my local feed store. Food was $26 and pine shavings were $7. I'm guessing that is enough to last around 2 months.

The entire setup with the rodents was about 125 bucks. Here is a pic of my setup.

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---------JAMIE ROTH---------

-----www.reptilepad.com-----
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Pine is horrible for rats and could kill them quickly. Also, they could possibly contain parasites such as lice or mites that can kill your rats(killed my rat in less than a week!)

Remember, you need happy healthy rodents for happy healthy snakes.

Also what type of blocks do you use to feed your rats?
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Clubber)

Didn't know that. I know two rodent breeders in Colorado that use pine. How did pine kill your Rat?

I'm using labdiet 500l.

Thanks,
-----
---------JAMIE ROTH---------

-----www.reptilepad.com-----
---------------------------------------

Pine didn't kill mine(I kept him on carefresh). It was lice in the woodchips that the breeders(I believe it was S.O.S. Rodent Express...DO NOT BUY FROM THEM) that sucked my little guy dry. And as you've probably seen in Dave's response to me, apparently only fresh pine can harm them.

By the way, sounds great what you're feeding them. I don't remember if I mentioned this but Kaytee's Forti-Diet is the worst stuff out there, as the blocks contain a known cancer causing substance(and if you didn't know, yes, rats can most definitely develop cancer like us).
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Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Clubber)

if the supplier has lice, although it could have come in pine shavings, is not specifically related to the pine shavings. Pine oils are toxic to rats but as the pine dries out, less oils are exposed so drier pine is less toxic to rats. At least that's the way I understand it.

And maybe you're actually talking about rodent mites? Have had those before, hard to get rid of but can be done.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Well my friend who worked at a wildlife rehab center said wood chips(not necessarily pine all the time) often contains parasites.

I highly doubt they were mites, I was in the forum on exotichobbyist.com(strange that they'd have the rat forum there) and this lady who's been working with rats for almost twlve years said my description of the parasites(brown, elongated, visible arthropods) fitted that of lice.

Now it doesn't matter anyway. He's dead and there's nothing I can do.
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Clubber)

It's really only fresh pine that is bad for them. I used pine for almost 20 years and still add a handfull to each cage for bedding. I only recently switched over to compressed wood pellets. Is stretching out my need for cleaning and holpoing with odor control.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I didn't know that it was fresh pine. Everywhere I went to research rats just said "pine could kill them". Thanks for the clear-up Dave!
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Clubber)

Hey Bob, gotta run so I'll answer more in depth later, see answers below in blue

>>I am looking to build a rat breeder rack and was wanting to know and want to know key things I need to look into to make it a one time buy kind of thing. Of course I have some questions about it so here are a few.
>>
>>1.If I planned on having at the most seven litters or so during litter season for the snakes, how many tubs would I use?
Is that 7 litters total or per week? 7 per week seems like a lot, Not a lot for me but I will probably have hundred(s) of babies
>>
>>2.I don't mind feeding them everyday but how can I give them a constant supply of water they can't mess with teeth wise?
use either a gravity fed or pressure regulated permanently plumbed system with sipper nipples. I use the edstrom ones.
>>
>>3.How do you build feed troughs so no food is wasted or soiled?
overhead troughs that they chew the food through

>>4.What kind of material do you use to cover the tubs cuz it appears like a mesh or something?
for home built i use hardware cloth 1/4" for mice and 1/2" for rats
>>
>>Bob

pics:
"storebought racks", the feed hoppers are in the rear, those white sheetmetal things you see. Based on cat box sized pans.

My home made racks based on LARGE mortar tubs, you can see the d=food and water lines towards the front.

Think about how many, what size, rat or mouse you want to produce per week and I'll put together a rodent breeding plan for ya.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I figure after a couple of hets and offspring this summer and then an anery and het and some of their offspring I figure about 25-30 brb's eventually a few bci's or bcc's and my friends will have about 6 bcc's. He wants to breed bcc and I just want to keep them and breed the brb's. So 30 brb's and 10 bcc's I would imagine but would rather have an extra row or two vacant for the mice if I have to go back to them for the babies but would much rather use the rats but the window of opportunity for a baby brb and a growing baby rat are slim especially when trying to feed during litter season. Oh yeah, during litter season I only going to maybe have at the most 4 special litters a year so that might be taken into account. I don't plan on supplying my friends feed for his babies bcc's but if you could give me a figure with everything that I gave you and if my friend had 2 litters a year assuming everyone had about 15 babies per litter. So 30 adult brb's, 10 adult bcc's (half breeding half not), and enough for 3 to 4 litters of babies for me and then a figure adding on 2 more litters for my buddy. Dave I undestand your feeding trough picture but can I see the other side where they eat the food so I know how big of a gap you have for a trough or understand better of what it looks like. I also saw the hose you ran and was wondering where they drank at (dumb question I know)? I see the hose going in the tub but don't see how they can get to it that's all. Thanks for the help.
Bob

OK, for a starting point I figure on one feed animal per baby snake per week with 20% not eating. And figuring one feeder animal per adult snake every other week. The growing up snakes will eat more often..... just a starting point to see what facility you'll need.

Don't really need to think about size for weekly volume as the larger animals will eat larger items while the smaller ones will eat smaller ones. so......

30 BRB + 10 BCC = 20 feeders/week
6 litters @15/litter X 80% = 72 feeders/week

92 feeders per week.

figuring on 12 per litter, that's 7 - 8 litters/week

You're approaching one of my store bought racks Plus my home made grow-out rack. Obviously you could build it all, just trying to show the relative size the colony would need to be.

>>I undestand your feeding trough picture but can I see the other side where they eat the food so I know how big of a gap you have for a trough or understand better of what it looks like.

There is no difference front to rear on the mesh used, the area for feed is simply made large enough so you don't have to fill but once a month. I'll help you with those details when you're actually ready to build based off of my growout rack experience.

I also saw the hose you ran and was wondering where they drank at (dumb question I know)? I see the hose going in the tub but don't see how they can get to it that's all. Thanks for the help.

At the end of each line is a brass nipple
Check this site out klubertanz.com/Catalog.htm go to the feeding/watering section - edstrom flex tube

-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

..I bought my rat watering supplies from agselect.com. I may be using a different valve than what Dave uses. I tried a couple different valves and decided the Erdstrom Vari-Flo worked best with my rats. The Erdstrom standard valve is supposed to work best for mice. I keep my rats in homemade racks with half inch hardware cloth. I buy either large chunk dog food or large chunk rodent chow and the rats eat it through the half inch hardware cloth. Smaller kibble size food falls through the half inch heardware cloth. I think quater inch hardware cloth is too small for adult rats to eat through. Overhead feed supply is the only way I know to keep the food from being soiled and wasted. Rat trays have to be cleaned 2 times per week, sometimes more. If you cannot devote the time to clean them on a regular schedule they will be dirty and unhealthy and the trays will smell. Dirty caging severely inhibits rat reproduction. I have good luck breeding rats and terrible luck breeding mice. If you have good control of temperature where you are keeping them you can have success with breeding mice. If you keep them in a garage with large temperature fluctuations the mice will often kill and eat their babies when the temperature is not ideal. Moving mice for cage cleaning when their babies are small will also often cause them to cannibalize the babies. Rats are much easier to keep and tolerate temperature extremes and cage cleanings much better than mice. To me the smell of male mice is objectionable. One day after cleaning mice cages they will smell bad again. Rats have a much less objectionable odor. Pinky rats are the ideal size for feeding to newborn baby Brazilian Rainbows and Bci. Most but not all baby boids will eat rat pinks and so I do not bother with raising mice. I do have to buy a few mice when I have baby snakes that will not all eat the rats. I think you could produce enough rats with about 10 breeder males and 30 to 40 breeder females.
Jeff
Agselect website

Agreed except I clean some weekly and some every other week, maybe it's the qty rodents per area? In the litterbox size I'll keep i rat mom with litter or up to 1.3 adult rats for breeding (moms removed pror to giving birth. Same trays in mice, up to 20 for holding, 1.x for breeding, again removing moms for birthing and 4 - 6 moms with litters.

I used to clean all weekly but started using eagle valley pelleted pine and found for all but the growout racks and almost weened rat litters, I can go two weeks between cleanings.

You can easily crowd in more rodents but then you have to clean more often....trade off!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave that sounds like a lot of feeders though. So let's go with a revised plan for just me and no buddy.
If I have 40 adults at bi-weekly feedings which requires about 2 litters a week and then if I drop say 3-4 litters at 45-60 babies then I'm thinking 5-6 litters a week for them at most with the additional 2 a week for the adults that makes me think I need at least 8 hatchling tubs, and how many is normally in a growout rack (how tubs or stages for rats)? If the moms are gonna get there kids eaten way before it is time to wean since most young brb's can't take much more than a pinky rat, that the tub will only be occupied for a little while and then she could rest again before getting pregnant with other females. So 8 tubs for the babies, 6 tubs for the females, 2 for the males, and can I get away with 8 tubs for the growout rack or is it best to have 2 sets? I only wanted to do no more than 24 tubs but what do think, pushing it or will never happen? I don't want to overcrowd and stress any of them out so I want to do everything the RIGHT way so what do you think about 24 tubs possible and water filtration is another tread.
Bob

so much for your pics, help and future advice that ya'll offer me on this subject and any other one for that matter.
Bob

I don't know if you missed my last post or not so I did another one. I think I have enough space for all the racks cuz the building is not constructed yet lol. So Dave how many tubs do you think I'm looking at with my last revised plan as I don't know how many rats you can keep in each growout tub but I would think it to be no more than 6 per tub as small rats or something. So how many tubs do you think I'm looking at total and if I could get the roundabout measure width and depth so I can calculate how big of a space I need to form up with some concrete and get my head thinking and get a permit and stuff. Thanks for the help again Dave.
Bob

OK, getting a little lost with your numbers so......

what I have is cat box size tubs for breeding and raising litters and huge mortar tubs for growout racks.

Breeding tubs = max number of litters per week.

Birthing tubs = max number of litters per week.

Raising tubs = 3 or 4 tubs per number of litters per week to be raised, depends on if you want 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 week old weanlings

Growout tubs = the large tubs I have will hold 30-40 weanlings or 15 (up to 20) adult males. I'm using 8 for growout
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I was just reading over the back and forths we had Dave I didn't know you kept mortar tubs for the growout rack and cat-sized litter pans for the birthing and raising of the babies. So all I need is a growout rack of eight for the rats? I don't know where I lost you but sorry I lost you.

Usual litters a week of rats 2

When the snakes are dropping litters, the most litters dropping a week for the rats would be 6

Feeding 40 adults on a bi-weekly basis and I would rather have the appropriate sized meal rather than smaller ones so the bigger rats 4 1/2 weeks old

The breeder rats are kept in the mortar tubs correct for breeding or litter pan?

Dave I am going to get a nice size litter pan from the store along with a mortar tub that way I have dimensions in front of me so I can start planning on the rack. Based on what I told you above could you tell me a roundabout figure for the amount of tubs I am going to need of litter pans and mortar tubs?

Thanks again for the response Dave
Bob

Now we're getting somewhere

So, raising up 2 litters per wek to 4 1/2 old weanling
max capacity of 6 litters per week (including the 2 raise ups?)
Breeding, birthing and rasing up done in cat litter box size pans

Total number of cat litter pans needed is 20 (24 if it's 6 pink plus two raise up) Btw, 24 pans is the size of one of my cat litter pan racks.

Mortar tubs for growout. Don't think you'd be able to get away with only 4 so might as well have 8. then you have more storage room for weanling - largest rats.

My racks again:

The cat litter pan racks, both shown 4x6 configuration each.

My 8 tub growout rack, shortly after built and not fully populated, now every tub is occupied.

BTW, one of the growout tub slots will be devoted to raising up females for breeders. Can always feed from this tub as well but you'll always want to keep a supply of breedable females on hand.

For smaller meals, use females first. The males will grow larger, quicker for those larger meals.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Water bottles for rodents can be easily purchased at a local pet store for cheap. It's a bottle with a steel tube. At the tip of the tup is a steel ball. Rats roll the ball with their mouths and the water comes out. These bottles are simply set up at the side of the cage nd don't spill.
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Clubber)

is if the bottle is made out of plastic them bastards chew threw and there goes a $3.50 bottle so I have glass bottles for them to chew on hahahaha. But if I was setting up say 24 tubs and had to buy a bottle for each and fill each one individually and they need to mount somehow and space is minimal so I am going to use that 3/16 flex tube at .20 cents a foot and connectors at under a dollar this is surely the way to go with a gravity style bucket. I love to interact with animals but individual bottles ($5) for each compartment is to expensive and time consuming and I'm broke and I want more snakes, more money, some boaphile townhouses, more racks, and more money.
Bob

..but that's out of the question for now until Rocky gets sexed lol. Money is also a very very very very very nice thing to have as well.

One thing you gotta be aware of is what you feed your rats/mice. I highly recommend Mazuri. What I advise you to do is DO NOT BUY KAYTEE. Kaytee blocks have a known cancer-causing preservative(yes rats can get cancer like us).
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Clubber)

I used to use the plastic bottles and as long as they are protected will last for years. But using water bottles sucks, ya have to check and fill them constantly. With my new racks I first went with a 5 gallon gravity feed for eaqch and only filled it once a week. I switched over to a pressure regulator hooked to tap water and I NEVER have to mess with any water issues. Yes, once in a while a valve will leak and you can get a flooded cage, still way better then filling bottles.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I'm not too keen on keeping feeder rats, just rats as pets lol. All I do with feeder rats is stick them in a lunch bag and give 'em a good WHACK! on a cement surface. Then I stick them in Rocky's feeding container of course.
-----
Scott

Reptiles
--------
1 Colombian Rainbow Boa (Rocky)
1.0 Ball Python (Sultan)
0.1 California Kingsnake (Leota)
1.0 Eastern Painted Turtle (Yugi)
0.1 Red/Gold Bearded Dragon* (Irwin, R.I.P.)

Other
-----
1.0 Betta Fish (Tyrone)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Clubber)