Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I generally do not purchase reptiles for any reason but this year i made an exception to the rule. I bought 2 baby retics- het for stripe. The breeder i got them from has had nothing but high marks. I have got many supplies from him- feeders before i switched to rodent pro (needed to buy in bulk), and he has a wonderful price on flexwatt heat pads. the problem i have now is- they're both dead!!! I got them on the 21st of feb. they died either the night of the 1st (march) or during the day on the 2nd- i wasnt home during the day- one of them for sure was alive during the day on the 1st (saw him getting a drink). when i got home around 2:30 on the 2nd, i went to change the water dish, i slowly reached in to get it and slowly pulled my hand out- no movement which is strange for a python with all those heat pits. i got my water bill and touched one- didn't move, got the hook and picked the first one up- dead as a doornail. reached over and picked up the 2nd one- he flicked his tongue twice and stopped moving. They are kept at temps of around 85-87 on warm end and around 79-82 on cool end. hide box on each side, water in the middle. I took them to the vet on the 2nd for a necropsey- when the vet walked in he said "those are awful da** skinny". I told him the story of where i got them- reputable breeder, he said they were fresh from the egg, and were eating baby chicks every thursday. when the vet cut the snake open, there was zero meat on him. they weighed 117 grams. (vet said thats what they get down to when they have nothing left to loose). no food in stomach, no waste in colon. vet said lungs, heart, kidneys, etc were clean as a whistle. I was planning to feed them today. (i feed on saturdays since its an all day job. i got them on a wed. so last week i didn't think they were ready after only having 3 days to settle in so i didnt feed them). when i called the breeder, he said that the vet didnt give a conclusive answer and that it was most likely my fault (something environmental) since they had been with him 3 or 4 months and were eating fine every other week. (notice the story changed from what i was originally told). the breeder wants to take the female to his own vet to get his own necropsey done and i'm scared to death that i'm about to get screwed. I'm worried that he'll run off with it and say they never died or have his "vet" make something up to do him a favor and have it be my fault they died.
I need some advise on what to do with this situation. I don't know if its worth going to small claims court and having him pay back my 350$ for the snakes and the 50 for the necropsey and court costs or just saying to hell with it- i dont see how one person would win a case against a well known buisness owner and breeder.... even though its his fault they died.... never been in this situation and i now remember why i don't buy animals from people. if anyone else has had a similar problem, please help me.
thank you
Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

unfortunately even some of the big breeders run into problems , but the first thing to do is make sure you talk to the breeder and not an employee. Most of the time the breeder will rectify the problem without an issue. if what you say is true. really all you can do is post it on the fauna BOI. I hope things work out for you

Yes, please post this on the BOI. If the breeder does not rectify the situation, you could at least save other people from doing business with this person.
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Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
2.4.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Hypo Everglades Rat Snakes
2.1.0 Baird's Rat Snakes
1.2.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snakes
1.1.0 Trinket Rat Snake
1.0.0 Japanese Rat Snake
1.1.0 Salt and Pepper Bull Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Het Amel San Diego Gopher Snake
0.1.0 San Diego Gopher Snake
3.2.0 Sonoran Gopher Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
2.1.0 Gray Banded Kingsnakes (2.1 River Road)
1.0.0 Hypermelanistic California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Albino High White California Kingsnake
0.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
0.1.0 Florida Kingsnake
1.1.0 Boa Constrictors
0.1.0 Dumeril's Boa
2.0.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
1.1.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Woma Python
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.1.0 Macklot's Pythons
1.1.0 Western Hognoses
1.1.0 Malagasy Giant Hognoses
1.0.0 Blacktail Cribo

LIZARDS
1.0.0 Frilled Dragon
3.1.0 Bearded Dragons (2 Normal, 1 RedXGold, 1 Citrus)
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
1.0.0 African Fat-Tail Gecko
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
0.1.0 Banded Gecko

FROGS
2.2.0 Southern Bell Frogs
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
1.1.1 White's Tree Frogs
0.0.2 Gold Frogs

I don't mean to imply anything here, but I am a bit curious and I think you will have to explain all these things before you'll get any remedy.

1) It sounds like you have a lot of experience, not only with reptiles in genereal, but probably with sick ones. You had these snakes for a week and didn't notice that they were starving to death?

2) How familiar is your vet with reptiles? Even someone familiar with more commonly kept boids might not realize how skinny a retic is SUPPOSED to be... They also have a faster metabolism, so after a couple of weeks, it wouldn't surprise me too much if their guts were empty...

3) What are the chances of two snakes you received the same day dying of starvation within 24 hours of eachothery, a week later? I can't blame the breeder for thinking that sounds like an environmental problem...

Now, if he's changing his story on when they were hatched that sounds suspicious. Did you talk to the same person both times?

This is why I also never buy snakes that I don't pick up in person. (That and the shipping costs for venomous)

I did take in a rescue once that died within 2 days. apparently of starvation, but I knew the second I saw the snake that it was nearly dead.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

very good questions and I feel that i have very good answers to them.
When I first saw them, the breeder told me they were fresh and I mean FRESH from the egg. which is why i thought they were skinny- they just hadn't had enough meals in them yet to fatten them up and since they just came from an egg- couldn't really build muscle. They did seem very active- like looking for food but since I generally feed my animals on saturdays- and I'd only gotten them on wed, i didn't think they had settled in enough to have a meal just yet- besides that skipping one week certainly should not have killed them if they were just fed a baby chick the week before!! I did think they were hungary but i didn't want to stress them and cause them undo problems.
The vet i use is very familiar with herps. He said he couldn't tell me how long ago thier last meal was but there was a lot of slime in his stomach which is what happens when they dont eat for an extended period. He also cut the colon open and there was very very little poop. The breeder said that they had eaten last thursday- i got them on a wed. (21st) and the male was seen on the 2nd.
I also had wondered about environmental issues but can't imagine what it would be. There are no chemicals around, I'm a bit of a germ freak so there was certainly no boa/python cross contamination. They had temps of around 75 at night and 79-82 cool end and 85-87 warm end during the day. hides on each end, clean water in the middle. I use newspaper for substrate. There are many other snakes and reptiles here- none of the others have had a problem- seems that if it were environmental- something else would be having a problem as well....
The story on when they were hatched and when they eat has changed several times now. When I purchased them- FRESH from the egg had had 2 meals- each on thursdays- (sounds to me like they were a few weeks old- which is what was implied- really should have asked) when I called BEFORE the vet trip- they had been there 3 or 4 months and were eating baby chicks every thursday- no prob. when i called AFTER the vet trip- they had been there 5 or 6 months eating baby chicks every other week- no problem. now- seems to me that a 5 or 6 month old RETIC thats been eating every week or every other week should be longer than 1 ft and weigh more than 117 grams- if i had been told then- they were 6 months old- i would have chewed the guy a new one for trying to sell a very sick animal-
I have had many many sick, starved animals- very very very rarely do i loose one- it amazes me that a very well known breeder would have such an ill animal...
we live about 2 1/2 hours from where the guys store is- i'm taking him the female tomarrow so he can take it to his "vet". I still have a lot of issues with this and i will give the guy a chance to make it right...
Beth
p.s. what is the boi???
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Hi -

I'm sorry you have had such a bad experience.

First off, paragraphs are your friends. They make it easier for folks to plow through a long narrative.

Second, your snakes were only 12" long? Even hatchling retics are longer than that, aren't they?

Third, could you post some photos of the animals before and after they died, as well as some of the necropsy photos that you took? You did take photos to document your claim with the seller, right?

Finally, did your vet send any tissues for histopathology? Did he actually tell you that starvation was the probable cause of death?

-Joan

i am in desperate search of my digital camera- once i find it i will post some pics. i most likely will be buying one in the morning if i dont find the old one. i dont have any before pics.
He said that there was a great amount of slime in thier stomachs which is what happens when they haven't eaten in a while. the seller said that they had eaten a baby chick the thursday before i got them- the vet said there is absolutly no possible way they ate that recently. the large amount of slime in thier stomachs and the lack of poop in thier colon is why he is able to say that. the seller wants me to bring both of them to him tomarrow so he can have his own necropsey done on them. i'm only giving him the female- that we didn't necropsey. we didn't do a histopathology- the vet said there was no need to.
the letter reads:
"Re: 2 reticulated pythons died overnight. recently purchased
Necropsey results: necropsied the male- other snake (female) not necropsied in case other vet chosen for 2nd opinion.
117 gm wt (male) 117 gm. wt (female)
Appears emaciated. very small amount of stool in colon but no amount of over sized or fuzzy remains. lungs, heart, kidneys & liver all appear normal.
A: emaciated and i feel that is the cause of death. suggest speaking with dealer as to previous feeding routine of snakes. If any questions, please feel free to contact me. histopathology not done"
- "signature of vet here"-

I'm still worried about the seller doing something he shouldn't- like paying his "vet" to write up a false result, or saying i never purchased the snakes from him or that they arent the same ones or.... whatever else could go wrong with this. I do NOT believe its environmental- seeing as how there are many other animals that are here and have been here and are not having problems.
I have just measured the snakes they measure:
male: 2 ft. 11 inches
female: 3 ft. 1/2 inches
let me tell you- they do not look 3 ft. in the slightest- i had to measure it several times before i believed it!!
Beth- I'll give you an update later tomarrow- after i see the breeder.

could a retic breeder tell me some measurements and weights of a freshly hatched baby? please.

-Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

here on kingsnake.com? They can give you accurate lengths and weights for babies.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

Well in my opinion your best bet is to cooperate with the breeder in supplying the unnecropsied body and hoping for the best.

If you are cooperative then it increases yur chances of a positive rectification from the breeder assuming the breeder is willing to rectify the incident. And if the breeder is not then nothing you do, short of legal action, is likely to get you anything.

I would cooperate with giving him the untested corpse and hope for the best. Worst case scenario you never do buisness with them again and are out $400. It would suck but I doubt it is really worth it to you to take the time and effort, not to mention stress, to try and wage a legal fight over $400.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

If this is indeed a reputable breeder I see absolutely no reason to hold back the deceased snake. Go ahead and make arrangements for him to have a necropsy run by vet that he has confidence in.

Hate to say this, but there are many vets that just don't know what they're looking at sometimes when it comes to these guys and the seller would like to have the confidence of dealing with someone that he has faith in.

If he did send you healthy, feeding babies he's probably wondering what the heck happened that both would die so suddenly. It is awfully suspicious that they would both pass away within a day of each other due to non-feeding issues. It can take months for babies to die from starvation. Sounds like you were keeping them together in the same enclosure?

Go ahead and give the breeder a chance to work with you and make right on the deal, you've got nothing to lose from this point on.

we went to the breeders vet of choice- which happened to be 2 1/2 hours away from where I live- did seem to know a lot about reptiles- he actually worked with and went to school with my vet of choice- he seemed very knowledgable. He said they were emaciated but didnt think that was the cause of death. His results were inconclusive. He wants to do a histiopathology and toxocology report. He asked if I used any chemicals to treat mites or other parasites- I use proventa-mite type stuff on smaller snakes and on larger heavy bodied snakes- i use a water/ frontline solution. he says that because i use frontline on other snakes and my dogs that it was probably from that- not really making sense to me since they obviously arent caged in the same cage with a larger heavy bodied snake.
he said something about when i spray my dogs that the overspray can get in thier cages and could have killed them. (I'm rolling my eyes- thats just absurd)

as far as caging. they were in the same cage the day and night i got them- late night, sick toddler, etc... the next afternoon (the 22nd) they were put in seperate 10 gal. tanks next to each other on the shelf in quarantine room.

long story short- guy wants 200 $ for tox. and histo. I'm certainly not interested in paying 200 $ on top of the 36 i already paid for my necropsey. (breeder got his done for free) for 357 $ snakes- 236 plus gas to get back and forth is a bit extreme. I have no reason to believe it was environmental- there are other animals in the quarantine room- opposite sides and they've not had a problem- nor have any of the other animals in the collection. I by no means feel that i'm at fault- i'm very experienced and will most likely never buy another snake from anyone. I'll just keep my fingers crossed that someone is looking to get rid of a relativly decent/handleable retic sometime soon. (i've had a few in the past come through the rescue when i wasn't set up to permanently house a large adult so i placed them- really wish i hadn't)
either way- i pretty much got screwed b/c i use frontline on my dogs b/c i don't want a house full of fleas and my dogs don't need tick- transmitted dieseases- what that has to do with reptiles on the shelf in the quarantine room is beyond me but i guess thats how life goes sometimes.
thank you all for your help.
Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

if the breeders vet says they were emaciated then there is one lie the breeder told you, also the same vet said he didnt think it was the cause of death. Hhmmm. Now this vet seems to be biased toward the breeder. unfortunately you are probably screwed and wont get any where with the breeder. Sorry to see you had such a bad experience. unfortunately even some and I mean some not all of the big breeders seem to be in it for the money sometimes and not the service of the customer, or the care of the animals.

>> he said something about when i spray my dogs that the overspray can get in thier cages and could have killed them. (I'm rolling my eyes- thats just absurd)
>>
>

No it is NOT absurd. It can happen and does happen. "Spraying" a liquid means some of the atomized/volatile fumes get into the air and stay in the air for some time before finally settling somewhere. Basically, if you can SMELL a pesticide in the room... guess what.. that pesticide is floating around in the air.

I've had fish die from flea spray being sprayed elsewhere in the house and, even with my door being closed, having the fumes make their way into the ventilation system and ultimately end up in the fish tank water of my room. After that incident, all flea spraying's of the dog were done OUTSIDE.

I've also had over $400 worth of high end tarantulas die horribly from poisoning one year due to another family member spraying ant spray around parts of the house (it was a bad spring for them migrating their colonies) and again, even with my door always kept closed, the fumes got into my room through the vents. I lost several thousand dollars in potential future offspring from those spiders that died...can't breed dead animals.

From those experiences with airborne poisonings, I won't even use Provent-a-mite inside the house if there are animals inside that can be affected by it such as amphibians and invertebrates. All treatments are done outside and those animals are then kept in a separate room for a couple of days to help insure there is no airborne contamination.
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_____

PHWyvern

i think its absurd since i only spray my dogs once a month (as the directions say) and they were sprayed long before the snakes were brought into the house. and I do usually do it out side- after they get a bath in the driveway- if its too cold for an outside bath- they go in the bath tub and dont always get sprayed- since there aren't really fleas and such in the winter. I do however use provent-a-mite things in the house but i've not had anything with mites in quite some time- been several months now.- a red tail boa- but boas and pythons are kept in different areas for quarantine and for after quarantine cages....
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Some of that is true but it is not as absolute as you imply.

First of all spray issues would ONLY be an issue if you were spraying the chemicals. Every time I have used frontline it was direct application, I didn't even realize it came in spray form until now. I know from the authors response that it was spray but that wasn't stated till after you went off about spraying.

Second just because you can smell it does not mean that there are floating toxic vapors. It is common practice in many areas of the commercial chemical industry to lace potentially harmfull chemicals with a odorous agent to serve as a warning of it's presence. The most common everyday example of this is propane gas. Propane itself has little or no smell. The smell we associate with it is an added chemical that was mandated to warn people when they had a leak. The scent however is seperate from the gas. If it was only the propane which smelled we would not know it until it was far to late since propane is heavy and sinks.

Now I hink that most of what you said are good attitudes to adopt for your general behavior because it will be erring on the side of safety with your animals. But that does not make all of it factually correct and does not make the authors doubt out of line. The single biggest factor that would make me question(but not rule out) a toxin in the house is that it only affected 2 animals which were in seperate cages. Every person that I have known who has had the great misfortune to lose animals to toxins in the house has lost a large percentage if not all the snakes in the house at the same time. Normally at least half of the collection if the are using a single room.

That does not eliminate a toxin in the house as a possibility but it would make me very suspicious of other possible causes. If the breeder were being straitforward and honest about the details then I would be suspicious of potential exposure in shipping since both shipped animals died so close together but nothing else did.

"He said they were emaciated but didnt think that was the cause of death."

I can't really speak to Burmese but for a baby to be emaciated means a fairly old baby. Two years back I had a baby BRB that refused to eat from birth. At FOUR MONTHS old, I finally gave in and force fed him his first meal. He did NOT look bad at all, just never grew from his birth size. Once he learned how to eat he took meals fine and grew at a normal rate, just 4 months behind his littermates.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>"He said they were emaciated but didnt think that was the cause of death."
>>
>>I can't really speak to RETIC's but for a baby to be emaciated means a fairly old baby. Two years back I had a baby BRB that refused to eat from birth. At FOUR MONTHS old, I finally gave in and force fed him his first meal. He did NOT look bad at all, just never grew from his birth size. Once he learned how to eat he took meals fine and grew at a normal rate, just 4 months behind his littermates.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>19.29 BRB
>>14.19 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
19.29 BRB
14.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats