Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A friend of mine had purchased a pair of hatchling veiled chameleons about two months ago. They have provided proper caging, heating, lighting, and supplements. In the last 3 weeks the female's legs started to develop oddly. It started with the back legs, which at that time I suggested to them that it could of been from the male hanging onto her hind legs. Now the front legs have developed the same way. They took the veiled to a vet and all the vet said was, "MBD" and gave her shots of calcium in the hind legs. I refuse to believe that with proper husbandry, "metabolic bone disease" could of set in so quickly. Could this be genetic? The lineage of the chameleons are unknown. Does this happen with inbred chams? I'd like to help them by giving a reasonable explanation as to why the chameleons legs have developed oddly.

It's pretty quiet around here on weekedns, so I guess I'll jump in...

" They have provided proper caging, heating, lighting, and supplements.

Can you tell us what that proper caging, feeding, watering, etc. is? Depending on where your friend got their info? there could be some gaps, likely nutritional, that they were not even aware of. MBD can sometimes seem to appear suddenly b/c they can break limbs and a bone cold be extruding. She could also have other problems that mimic MBD. I hope the vet did bloodwork first b/c TOO much calcium can mimic these symptoms as well.

How old were they when they were purchased? It is possible they did not get proper care by previous owner and the damage is done. But this is all speculation...

Here is a list of specific questions that can help us troubleshoot. Where it asks for BRAND names please be specific.

1. Cage type: What size and type of cage (screen, glass, etc.)?

2. Temperatures: What is the basking temperature? How do you measure the temperature in your setup? What is the temperature in the warmest spot? The coolest spot? At night? During the day? You should measure the temperature of the chameleons' skin or the surface of its current branch to get a more accurate reading. Do you leave any heat on at night? What is the temperature in the room at night?

3. Lighting: What brand is your UVB light? How long have you been using it? How long are your lights on each day? Do you leave any lights on at night? Where are the lights? on top?

4. Humidity: Do you have a humidity gauge? What is the range of relative humidity (RH) from lowest to highest? How long does it take to go from high to low? Do you use a humidifier? Do you live in the north or south (or other)?

5. Water: Have you observed your chameleon drinking? How often do you mist? Do you have a dripper?

6. Food: Have you observed your chameleon eating? What is the chameleon's diet? Where do you get your live feeder prey? What are you feeding the feeders? Fresh veggies? Gut load? If you use a commercial gut load what is the brand? If you make your own what are the ingredients?

7. Supplements: What type of supplement(s) do you use? Brand name(s)? How often do you use supplements?

8. Plants & branches: What plants do you have? Are your plants alive or fake? Do the plants provide lots of coverage where the chameleon will feel safe? Can you see your chameleon most of the time or can it hide from your view?

9. Chameleon facts: How old is the chameleon? Do you know if it is wild caught or captive born? Did you get the chameleon at a show? Breeder?

10. Handling: Do you handle your chameleon? How often and how long? What is its reaction to you? Is the cage in a quiet part of the house or is it in a busy or noisy area? Any big stereo speakers near the cage? Is your chameleon alone in the cage? Can your chameleon see any other herps or pets from the cage?

11. Veterinarians: Do you have a veterinarian who KNOWS chameleons?

One last thing: As great as everyone is here (and they are), if there is a medical problem there is no substitute for a trip to the veterinarian.
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Well put, without knowing detailed answers to these qs, we can not judge anything.
Also I read between the lines that they were housed together.
That alone can couse enough stress to favour severe MDB even upon otherwise proper nutrition etc.

Ci@o

Ingo

I do know the vet they took their chameleon to isn't specialized in herps. There was no bloodwork done. It was a physical examination and that's it. Too much calcium in the diet? The problem spread to the front legs after shots of calcium were given to the cham.

The chams are both fairly young, 4 months old tops. Like I said, proper care had been given to my knowledge. I had instructed them with the vitamins, for every 2-3 days.

Still curious if this could be the result of inbred chams? If this was the result of bad husbandry, the male would be in the same condition. They both seem to be perfectly healthy chameleons other than the females legs.

hello
well with most lizards they require a calcium suppliment and the uv lamp should be changed on a regular bases. also with the young their first few months of life are the most important when it comes to their bones. i got a bearded dragon from a guy and he didn't believe in calcium and unfortunatly it didn't make it. it died from mbd. i tried everything i could think of to help him out but in the end he didn't have any bone structure it was all cartlidge. so i would defintly recommend the calcium and a new light and make sure it is the uva and uvb type. so hope she gets better and maybe a check up with a herp vet would get her on the right track even though she wont be able to get her legs fixed she should learn to cope with it as long as there is no pain

I don't have experience with chams, but I do currently have a crested gecko who appears to have MBD, despite plenty of calcium (in fact, her calcium sacks in her mouth are huge & full of calcium). But she suddenly became unable to metabolize the calcium she was getting, for some reason. The fix has been to use injectable Calcitonin to help her body use the calcium she's getting. I read about this problem in a tortoise, which is what made me wonder about it in my crestie.
A herp vet would be your next best stop. You can find one at: http://www.arav.org/USMembers.htm
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Robins Critters
1.0 Corn snake Jack Skellington
1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
0.1 Western Hognose Addy the Adder
1.0 Tricolor Hognose Yoshi
1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
1.3 Crested Geckos Fox Mulder, Zoe, Peek & Boo
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
1.1 Eastern Box Turtles Squirtle II & Yurtle II
0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
0.2 Tiger Salamanders Tiger & Sally
1.1.1 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

... her calcium sacks in her mouth are huge & full of calcium).

What are calcium packs? Interesting, I know nothing about crested gex except that they are very neat looking. Are these sacks the equivalent of a fat pad on a dragon or chameleon?

I had a female cham who had seriously fluctuating calcium due to constant (infertile) egg development. She would just suck it from her bones, even with the additional liquid Ca (under guidance of vet) she still dev3loped MBD. At one point she had excess Ca and that was when I learned of the Calcitonin. I think he only had to do it once to get her back on track. She died at just over 2 years indirectly (directly?) due to these problems

Do you know why your gecko could no longer metabolize the Ca? I know they are nocturnal - what are their UVB requirements? have you looked into the vitamin D3 connection? Here;s a link with great articles. It's on chams, but many of the health, nutrition, supplementing can be applied to all/most herps.

Hope your crestie is ok!!

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Lele,
Thanks for the link.
I have not explored the D3 link. My understanding from the literature is that cresties don't require UV, so I don't provide it. The vet tried to draw blood (stuck Peek 3 times!) to confirm diagnosis, but couldn't get blood.

Calcium sacks are on the roof of the gecko's mouth (inside) & grow or shrink according to intake & usage of calcium. They are used to store extra calcium. Some other types of geckos have them, too, but I can't remember which kinds.

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Robins Critters
1.0 Corn snake Jack Skellington
1.1 Hog Island Boas Harley & Isaboa
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
0.1 Western Hognose Addy the Adder
1.0 Tricolor Hognose Yoshi
1.3 Leopard Geckos Yoda, Geo, Tang, Ginger
1.3 Crested Geckos Fox Mulder, Zoe, Peek & Boo
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
1.1 Eastern Box Turtles Squirtle II & Yurtle II
0.1 Pacman Frog Buffy the Cricket Slayer
0.0.1 Sulawesi Red Toad Mr. Toad
0.2 Tiger Salamanders Tiger & Sally
1.1.1 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton, Olivia Newton John & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena