Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Something occurred to me today that brought me back to thinking about the whole 18 breeding size debate that was raging on this forum a few months back.

I am of the opinion that when a snake ovulates it is ready to breed. I have no problems breeding snakes at a young age. However I have never bred a snake at 18 inches simply because by 18 months old and the first ovulation, my snakes are all bigger then 18 inches!

But I would really like this thread NOT to go in the direction of whether that is the right or wrong way to grow and breed snakes. Some people like to wait, others like to breed as early as possible. To each their own.

However at the time of the debate, I pictured in my head a king that was about 18 inches ovulating and laying eggs. Fine no problem. If they could do it (and some very qualified experts on this forum have vouched for it) then why not?

Today however I realized that there is a big difference between "about 18 inches" and a real MEASURED 18 inches. Because when I measured them carefully, the snakes that I was picturing as 18 inchers, were all actually closer to 22 inches.

The following pictures are of my hypo cal king. It happens to be a male, but that is neither here nor there. This snake is 8 months old and exactly 18 inches long. He weighs 36.2 grams. I have females lay single eggs that are practically that big! If anyone here thinks that a female this size could breed, I believe that they are sorely mistaken. In my experience, cal kings that achieve breeding weight, girth, maturity, would HAVE to be bigger then 18 inches. Even if they were only yearlings, they would have to be bigger. At least that is the way that ALL of mine are proportioned.

I would also like to remind everyone that I am just talking about western getula (calis, MBKs, and splendida). These are the species that sparked the initial debate and they are all in the same size range and body type. I am well aware that easterns, mexicana, and mountain kings could all be proportioned very differently at different ages, and lengths.

If anyone who was vouching for breeding a true 18 inch long cal king, I would love to see a photo measured by ruler or serpwidget or something.

Like I said I am all for breeding young, and if an 18 inch long snake ovulated I might try to breed it. But I just don't think that there is such a thing as an 18 inch long sexually mature snake.

You said “I just don't think that there is such a thing as an 18 inch long sexually mature snake” and that statement would be true only if considering captives and not wild ones. It may be true that a captive produced, fed the way we usually do it (note not necessarily “right”) is almost always going to exceed 18 inches by eighteen months. We usually use the “eighteen months” as the accepted minimum for raising them up to breeding age. I agree with you that most skinny snakes we would casually call eighteen inches might actually measure as much as thirty inches. What I have noticed lately is how big my snakes looked coming out of cooling. I really don’t think they actually grow during brumation, but I just remember those youngsters being cooled for the first time as if they were still hatchlings, and it is quite a surprise when you see them again after cooling and they are so much bigger than you remember. I think it’s from fattening them up prior to cooling and being busy and not noticing how they grew so much right before cooling. So these little snakes you would swear were not much bigger than that “18 inches” turns out in spring are really quite big enough to ovulate, breed and successfully produce a clutch of eggs. I do agree that any snake that ovulates is ready to breed. That is a most logical assumption. I would also say it would be possible for a wild snake (Cal king) to reach eighteen months of age, be sexually mature enough to ovulate, and not be MORE than eighteen inches. Even though if you get eggs some call it success no matter what, I think for that same snake to be captive produced would either be a real true runt, or has been poorly maintained. I don’t see that snake going on to grow into a large adult. Maybe just a runt, dwarf?

Very good post Zach!!

A big " thumbs up! "

Echoing off what you said, looking at 18 inches measured and then thinking of the whole spectrum of that subject is sobering.

Your hypo cal king is so awesome! I love it!
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Genesis 1:1

I have a 2006 MBK that is about 18 inches.
I'm already planning to photograph her sitting on top of a clutch of Cal King eggs.

I have a Cal King that hatched on Dec 2 that is already about 15 inches. He's shipping out today, but his two little sisters (probable sisters) are hold backs and are 13 to 14 inches.

I still find it incredibly hard to believe that at 18 inches they can lay a clutch of eggs - even a clutch of 1.

I can't say it never happens, but I really think it is the exception and not the norm.
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3.3.2 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata