Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's my pair of 05 hypos from Jeff Hardwick. Sorry, these are the best pictures I could get.
Steve

WOW, I really like those..

Jeff sure has some GREAT looking animals!

~ Mike Russo

pretty animal.but i have to disagree with the use of the term 'hypo'(-melanistic)....looks like the black bands are indeed black-i.e. it seems to have all the black pigment of a normally colored syspila.just looks like the white is exceptionally wide,sort of a pattern abberrancy.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I agree with what you disagree about.

Doesn't look too "Hypo" from here.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com

actually,now that i look at it again-it really looks like it has some hybrid influence,either alterna-or,even more so-mexicana.check out how the head has little to no red on it,never seen a syspila like that before.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

These animals are pure syspila from MO stock, no doubt about that. As for the way the gene influences the production of melanin, I couldn't tell you off hand. They are extremely clean animals, and are produced in typical recessive fassion. Close-up pics show a better representation of the color mutation, as well. Just some thoughts.
-Cole

Does anyone know what county in MO these hypos originated from?

They are actually the result of a breeding between syspila from two counties in MO. Jefferson Co. animals (from the eastern part of the state) are one half of the equation and Buchanan Co. animals (from the western part of the state) are the other half. These animals are "pure" syspila but lack a locality designation.

-Cole

Thanks Cole. I'm getting a pair of hypo syspila from this same bloodline and wondered what part of my home state the gene came from.

-Brad

But they don't look anything like most western Mo. syspila IMO. They look just like milks from a certain county in southern MO...

Hey Chad, what's up (Brad from costco here). You may have mentioned that someone you know caught a hypo syspila last season...if that happened what county was it from?

A large percentage of the melanin is missing from the "head" region, as well as a VERY clean body coloration with minimal/no melanin. Snakes can have pure black coloration, and still be a "hypo, as long as the melanin is greatly reduced in pattern, and/or by coloration,.Most people are used to seeing hypomelanism expressed as an extremely light gray, as in Hondurans, and some others. If ANY Milksnake has "jet-black" coloration, but only has a few scales that are "jet-black" on it's entire body, it is NO DOUBT a "hypo.......Also, Jeff is much too responsible, and knowledgeable to even attempt a stunt like that.....it just looks funny from that distance is all. So I say, those are some nice looking animals!!.............Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

your right about hypos.
And more importantly what you said about Jeff H. is spot on. He is as solid as they come.
As is stevep.

Those Syspila are outstanding looking.

-Dell

To question Jeff's ethics is crazy. Easily one of the most honest and trustworthy guys you can deal with. Not to mention the ablsolutely stunning quality of the animals he produces...
-Cole

i don't know jeff,wasn't "questioning his ethics",didn't care who produced them,etc....i made an observation,it's been explained that i was incorrect.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I didn't mean to come across as hostile! That wasn't directed in a crass way - I appologize! I understand what you were saying, though, just so we're clear.
-Cole

yeah,i guess that makes sense.i was not trying to imply any deception by anyone re:subsp,etc....but like you said,though it's not the norm,i guess hypomelanism could be displayed in a lesser amount of,rather than a noticeable lightening of, black/dark pigment.still you have to admit the lack of red on the head is a little odd for that subspecies....anyway,nice snake.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I would agree with that. The lack of red in the head, and the wide white bands are unusual looking for the Sysipla I have seen. But didn't Greatfuldead (CW) recently post a whiteish headed wc Sysipla from the field.

Anyway great looking Sysipla.
Bye, time to smoke a cigar.

-Dell

PERFECT WORLD.
About 10 or more years ago the HYPO name was used for pretty much any type of morph that was CLEAN and exemplified color and pattern. The name went through the ringer pretty good because even by todays "definition" it is hard to define. With the magnitude of morphs having been produced and reproduced over the past 10 years we have come to accept that HYPO means lack of melanin but doesnt mean the morphs names HYPO before are changed now.
I have never thought either the HYPO coastal plains milk nor the HYPO red milk fit the "classic" definition of HYPO. The HYPO nelsoni, hondurans, pueblans, pyros, and others seem to be working with the same gene. This is why I thought the EXTREME HYPO(so named years ago)was indeed not a HYPO but a lavender albino. But the name stuck, go figure.
I suggest that we all get used to calling morphs the names from the breeder(named even,lol)because its obvious that we cant all accept the same nomenclature. I think this particularly funny because the same people will split hairs on locality as defined by "common" names.
The HYPO reds have been around in their same form and glorious color all this time, and no one questioned validity. I think it standard now to have to explain the history of every gene I deal with. Too bad we cant agree on a pedigree system because alot of good info is being lost to father time.Sorry if this comes off negative, I didnt mean it that way,Jeff

not taken negatively at all....one thing though-you suggest hypo in some cases being more like a lavender albino(amel?)......i.e. 'tyrossinaise positive'...if that were the case,they would still have the lack of melanin in the pupil;in any of the several hypomelanistic syspilas and temporalis i've seen,none had the telltale red pupil of an amel,be it t+ or t-...otherwise would have to agree,the dark bands on these hypos at least superficially resemble a lavender....
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

not the case at all. There are several "typical" morphs out there. I mean that they are recessive,predictable, genes that can pretty much be "pigeon-holed" from colubrid to colubrid. T and T- are not applicable unless the tests have been done---and they havent. RED eye albino, lavender eye albino and HYPO are common among captives. Once in a while we find a gene who ACTS recessively yet is not as easy to "pigeon-hole",fit into a catagory.
Its my opinion that the HYPO coastal is in fact a lavender albino but the HYPO red is a gene undiscovered in other colubrids SO FAR. I think the head kind of gives it away, and some can argue their thoughts on the black found on the animal. Either way, no one can argue that they are a recessive morph. We have to accept the name. By the way,anyone producing them this year?? J

Jeff,
The only thing I really don't get about what you said is the lav albino thing for the extreme's?
We know they are actually hypo cause they are compatible with the normal hypo gene in hondurensis.If it was a lav albino of some kind then when bred to a hypo you would get all normals (dbl-hets).

Shannon

Shannon, that morph appeared within the HYPO line to begin with. There are many instances now of NEW morphs appearing within established morph lines. It makes sense with the genes concentrated. With the extreme gene, I dont know why, but I saw the difference right away. I remember many arguements on this forum to that effect,lol. Anyways, it was my contention that the variability of the Extreme lines was due to the fact that some of those were/are "lavender HYPOS", maybe even from the beginning. I dont know how you would split them now, but I would think it possible. When the line is bred into another morph(like anery)it may be a bit more clear, but at this point why would anyone really want to? I think most people want MORE genes in their animals not less right? I dont know, just rambling now, I will shut up,lol.Jeff

Steve,

Dell called to tell me about the pics you sent him just a couple of minutes after I checked out your post! Nice snakes, man. Really nice.
-Cole

Howdy all, first thanks for the kind words and as stated above, the hypo line is pure syspila and we know very well that the ssp varies within the state, county, hillside, and clutch. I've hatched nates with stripes, saddles, rings, heavy tipping, no tipping and every degree of hypo imaginable all from the same 2 adults. Truly, no clutch has ever looked like the last beyond rather general characteristics.
When we define hypo-ness (new word) in our snakes, I'll take the definition of "reduced or a lack of black when compared to the typical or common example" rather than arm wrestle over too much black vs immaculate. Where do we say an example is hypo then? No black at all? And will we wait 5 years for the snake to mature before declaring it hypo? I see a lot of hypo stuff out there and may just be too lax. I dunno....
The real value of this forum is peer review of our projects and input from our friends and peers--we can't get away with slinging manure very long here.
The hypo issue is officially open for discussion but pls kids, no flaming and slamming....really!
Here's the dam to the nates above.
Jeff

To do is to be. - Descartes
To be is to do. - Voltaire
Do be do be do. - Frank Sinatra

Hi Jeff!,.......she looks almost like a "mirror image" of the youngsters Steve posted!,....what did the sire look like?, do you have a pic of him?,.....take care,.....................Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

The sire is so identical to the dam (siblings) I have to tag one with a marker when I pair them off.
They're a really fun project!
But I wish I had those Oligs you had long ago! Any chance of tracking that stock down??
Jeff

Jeff,.....I wish I did still have those!!!, I sold those to some unknowns a looong time ago! LOL . That was indeed a HUGE mistake on my part!. The adage "learn from your mistakes" does seem to come to mind!!LOL.....great looking "reds" dude!!..take care,........................................Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Wow.
Didn't mean to start anything. But it's great to hear everything from everybody.
Jeff is the best!
And by the way, their sheds are patternless. I heard somewhere that hypos will show no pattern in their shed. These guys do not.
Steve

I believe there's 2 types of hypo-ness that we see.
1) the classic: very reduced or absent black, reds are lighter and even orange from the lack of tipping/black. Yellows are bright yellow. But the black really is black when present.

2) the odd one: black bands are pretty much the size you expect them to be but that black is some shade of brown. Red and yellow are very clean (may have minor flecking)or immaculate. The hypo Pueblans are a good example of this type II hypo-ness.

To my knowledge, we don't have terms that would define one from the other but I remember Terry Dunham trying to explain the differences years ago right here on this very forum. Much later I discovered the differences but also realized that hypo can't be quantitated, it's bloody subjective.

Again, thanx for the kind words-always nice to hear!
Group hug!!! Jeff

yeah,.......I would have to say..."ditto on that!", basically coincides exactly with what I stated earlier................or simply put....RIGHT ON DUUUDE!!LOL........................Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Jeff, am I the only one to notice that there seems to be a few "morphs" within NA milks that dont fit in any of these normal catagories? The HYPO coastal plains, the HYPO red, my anery/green insular race, those patternless louisiana milks, Terry D's hypereryth pyro to name a few. That is not to say that we dont see the "classic" red eye albino or anerythristic morphs, but NA milk morphs show more of these anomalies than their mass produced cousins dont you think? J

A lot of good words being tossed around about Jeff - all deserved. We had a lot of discussions about these guys before I bought them. And a lot of emails when I got them and now two years later - I still ask him stuff. He is one great guy.

Dell & I keep running into each other in all of these forums. One of these days I'm headin west to do some fishin & herpin with him. He has some really nice animals

And here's a picture of the greatest person of all ---
My Granddaughter!!! (she is also somewhat hypo)

Thanks
Steve

I'd seen the pic before and get a chuckle every time I see it-very cute munchkin and good pic Steve!
Jeff

Here's another shot of my hypo granddaughter - she is blonde & blue eyed!!
Steve

That picture cracks me up! Way to start 'em young, Steve! You should head on out here - Dell's the fishing master. Those tricolor hogs he got from you just layed again. I haven't seen the eggs yet (maybe I'll go check them out tonight or tomorrow) but I've got my fingers crossed that they're fertile.

-Cole

Hey Cole

Dell emailed me and he thought they were bad. That does suck if they are. He was going to try cooling the male a bit (although I never cooled mine). I know I'm a lot better if I'm not cooled.
Have my fingers crossed for him.

Here's a picture of Dells female when she hatched.

One of these days I will surprise him and knock on his door. Of course that will be the week he's in Panamal or somewhere cool.

Steve

I remember that pic! What a neat animal those Lystrophis are. How many do you keep? I'm a lot better when I'm not cooled, too, but I live in MT so I don't always have a choice! LOL Wouldn't it be nice to get to head to the tropics every winter like Dell? Especially if there was someone (like me) to watch your animals while you were gone!
-Cole

As of next week - I will have no tri color hogs. I bought one pair form Steve Emerick, raised them up, had two clutches - sold the parents to Jim McDonald , the first pair of babies to Dell, 15 more to others and I kept one. Just sold her to floridahogs and will be shipping next week when it finally get over 40 degreees.
I sold them because I had an opertunity to pick up a 1998 male eastern indigo from Dean Alessandrini - he is another great guy.
Here's another bad picture of the indigo and one of my good ones!
And my stripped/spotted temporalis - that keeps this in the right forum!!
Steve