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All of the snakes in the below photos are Louisiana locality Kisatchie cornsnakes, which is being classified as a SUBSPECIES of the "eastern" cornsnake in relatively new studies. The darker one (female) is a still VERY rare dark-eyed anerythristic Kisatchie cornsnake resulting from breeding some F1 captive-hatched babies together. As far as I know, Don Soderberg and myself are the only ones that have any of these at this time.

Notice the size difference. The male (normal Kisatchie coloration) is mid-aged, and the female will be 3 years old in a few months. This female is over 3.5' in total length. That'll give you a size estimate for the larger male. Kisatchie cornsnakes CAN reach impressive sizes exceeding that commonly seen even in large adult Jaspoer County "Okeetee" Cornsnakes.

The below images are pretty graphic breeding shots, and the second one is just a closer shot of the first image.

Note that intromission is obvious, and semen can even be observed running down the hemipene to collect near the site of actual penetration. For a virgin female, I almost felt bad breeding her to such a large male. No problems were observed, but I didn't expect any problems to be noticed, either.

In more commonly seen terminology, "Duuuude, my snakes are breeding!"
KJ

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KJUN Snakehaven

Yes!,.....I see he wasn't shy in front of the camera when it came to the "money-shot"!!!LOL,......did they both smoke a cigarette afterwards?!!LOL.....good luck having "little ones" with those two!....I'm familiar with "slowinski's" cornsnake, but what exactly does "Kisatchie" refer to(at the risk of sounding stupid)!LOL.....best regards,...................Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

>>LOL,......did they both smoke a cigarette afterwards?!!

I don't know. After taking the images, I left the room. The male had that look like "you are NEXT." I didn't want to chance him making me his [snip bad word]....lol.

> I'm familiar with "slowinski's" cornsnake, but what exactly does "Kisatchie" refer to(at the risk of sounding stupid)!

Kisatchie is the common name herpers used for "slowinksii" before it was officially described in the literature as a unique population of snakes. I know we were calling them Kisatchies back when we were breeding them in 1996. That's over a decade ago. Call me old fashion, but I think our common name takes precedence. It was published first (popular references only), and we (herpers) knew it was unique long before it was described. Credit is where credit is due, right? LOL.

Kisatchie comes from the area where it was originally believed they were limited to: Kisatchie, LA, up through the Kisatchie NF portion of LA. Everything outside of that range was thought to be pure E. emoryi. Ooops, but the name (with people working with them that long ago) stuck! It is also the type locality got the newly described taxon.

Sooo, slowinskii ARE Kisatchie cornsnakes.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

Hey!,.....thanks for explaining that in some detail. I've been not as involved with "corns" for a while as I used to be. I was heavily involved with "milks" during alot of this period....... thanks,......Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

I love, love, LOVE the Kisatchies.

I know you're a serious purist with regards to the Kisatchies, so, an obvious question is how do you feel about the Anery gene from the Kisatchies being bred into other corn genes to create variations on the Ghost, Snow, Anery Bloodred, etc morphs?

Also, I KNOW the Kisatchie Anerys are fresh on the scene, but, have they been bred to the established (ie: S.west Florida) Anery gene to see if the two forms are compatible or not?

Lastly, do you have any full body photos of that 'odd' male from Grimes County, Texas? Just the head/neck photo on your webpage is enough to make any corn-nut curious/excited.

Thanks for any info.

BB
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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

>>I love, love, LOVE the Kisatchies.

You're preaching to the choir. They are my second favorite taxon of snakes to herp, keep, and reproduce.

>>I know you're a serious purist with regards to the Kisatchies, so, an obvious question is how do you feel about the Anery gene from the Kisatchies being bred into other corn genes to create variations on the Ghost, Snow, Anery Bloodred, etc morphs?

OK, this is my PERSONAL opinion only, and I'm keeping it as brief as I can to avoid turning the thread into a flame war.....lol. (I know that isn't your intent, not is it mine.) Soooo, to give you the honest answer you deserve, I know it will happen, but I do NOT like it. Corns are so screwed up, and pure ones MAY be nearly impossible to locate, so I don't think this gene can make the cornsnake group any worse off that it is already (potentially "si," at least). I AM worried about people calling the F1 hybrids "Kisatchie corns het snow" resulting in a misrepresentation of the snakes as "slowinskii" and polluting the Kisatchie cornsnake captive population. I really am. I personally think that anyone who hybridizes a Kisatchie cornsnake AND CALLS IT A KISATCHIE is not a good person. I hope this makes sense to everyone, and I am NOT just using this as a platform to attack hybrids. Really.

I'm not sure it would create completely new looking morphs if crossed to corns, anyway. Well, maybe a Kis-Aner Bloodred would look unique. OK, maybe they would look different - you are right. Still, I'd rather not know....lol. If/when the crosses are made, I hope they get a distinctive name DIFFERENT from Kisatchie like "Texas Cross corn het snow."

>>Also, I KNOW the Kisatchie Anerys are fresh on the scene, but, have they been bred to the established (ie: S.west Florida) Anery gene to see if the two forms are compatible or not?

Good question - not YET. 2007 is the first year either Don or myself have enough adults to begin to "play" or "test" things. You'll have to contact Don for any details of what he is/isn't testing later this season. I'm really not sure WHAT his plans are exactly, but I know we talked about putting a male with an anerA and an anerB female JUST to see if this gene is allelic with either of the other two common cornsnake aner genes.

They are locality animals (no corn blood) from central LA (near the type locality......lol), but I will be surprised if this mutation isn't allelic to the Type A anerythrism in cornsnakes. Except for the greatly reduced amount of yellow, they are identical to anerA corns in coloration. Well, they are MUCH darker than typical anerA corns, but the normals are darker to start with. I hope it turns out to not be allelic, though.

>>Lastly, do you have any full body photos of that 'odd' male from Grimes County, Texas? Just the head/neck photo on your webpage is enough to make any corn-nut curious/excited.

Yes. Ohhh, you want to see one, too, right? LOL.

I plan to post some in the future here and on the site. Reptiles Magazine bought a Kisatchie article recently that they should/might print in an upcoming issue. It has a better shot of that light grey male. I'm really not posting and "good" images of these morphs until AFTER that article comes out. I'm not trying to be a butthead, but I think they kinda deserve a little thunder and aticipation since they bought the article. Understand?

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

KJ,

I have no intentions of turning this thread into a flame war. Was just curious as to your opinion(s) on the Anery Kisatchies and such. I KNOW you have a passion for the Kisatchies.

I suppose the only way to avoid 'diluting' the Kisatchie genetics from test-breeding to standard Anerys would be to cull all of the hatchlings....A step that would probably offend many corn keepers, but the only way I can think of to prove the Anery Kisatchies compatible/non-compatible with standard Anerys and the Kisatchie line 'pure'.

I totally get what you're saying about purity in corns. The last few years alot of 'RootBeer corns' have appeared for sale that are gutatta X emoryi Lavenders, gutatta X emoryi Motleys and so on....'RootBeer Lavenders'...'RootBeer Motleys'....etc....not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

I see your point on keeping additional photos of the Grimes County male to yourself for now.
I'll have to keep an eye open for that upcoming issue of Reptiles.

Thanks for the info. Best of Luck in your 2007 breeding efforts.

BB

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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

>>I have no intentions of turning this thread into a flame war.

I know nobody currently involved had that goal. That was directed to hypothetical third parties that like to hijack threads......lol.

> Was just curious as to your opinion(s) on the Anery Kisatchies and such. I KNOW you have a passion for the Kisatchies.

Honestly? i think it DOES need to be tested. I don't have a male aner (just het males), so I wouldn't test it now even if I could. I do hope that the results of the test are NOT sold, though. Cruel, but there it is.

Again, if people call them something EXCEPT Kisatchie cornsnake when they sell them, they hybrids won't cause me to lose any sleep. I have seen many hybrids sold as "Kisatchies het albino," though. Since there are NO albino Kisatchie cornsnakes, you know what those animals are and what it will mean to some people out there. Misleading on purpoise or not, those animals will eventually get misrepresented (by accident). That's the only reason I don't like hybrids. Ahhhh, well.

>>I suppose the only way to avoid 'diluting' the Kisatchie genetics from test-breeding to standard Anerys would be to cull all of the hatchlings....A step that would probably offend many corn keepers, but the only way I can think of to prove the Anery Kisatchies compatible/non-compatible with standard Anerys and the Kisatchie line 'pure'.

Correct, but not culling them will offend "purists." Darn if you do and darn if you don't. Males can be made non-breedbale very easily. Females are harder, but picky kingsnake hatchlings need food, too. Personally, I'd give them to a friend with a coral snake on educational display at a museum. They don't go to waste, no wild animals are harmed, and the coral snake IS used for education. I can sleep at night, but I do appologize for any that I offen that way. (BTW, that is where nonfeedering and kinked hatchlings end up. I'm glad to see they do not go to waste when I donate them to a museum for food.)

>>I totally get what you're saying about purity in corns. The last few years alot of 'RootBeer corns' have appeared for sale that are gutatta X emoryi Lavenders, gutatta X emoryi Motleys and so on....'RootBeer Lavenders'...'RootBeer Motleys'....etc....not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

Take the candycane corns. people think they are pure, but the Love's created their line by breeding Miami cornsnakes into light colored creamsicles decades ago. Since candycanes have been outcrossed - especially inferior ones - for generations to regular albinos, what do you think trhis has done to captive corn snakes? If ultramels are hybrids (I don' think that they are), all of the "amels" produced are hybrids, but are sold as regular amels, right? What will that mean in 10 years? I don't know, but I'm scared it'll happen with Kisatchies, too.

I only own WC and CH Kisatchies, except for some F1 animals I produce myself. I have a large enough colony already, that I don't think I'll ever have to by a normal looking Kisatchie in my life. I have no intention of ever getting rid of them (I've had them for over a decade already), so I'm safe. I'll be selfish and say "That's good enough for me." LOL.

>>Thanks for the info. Best of Luck in your 2007 breeding efforts.

Ditto ...and Hahpy Herpin'!

Are you anywhere near Kisatchie cornsnake home range (east TX and west LA)?
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

I'm not offended by humane culling. I do it myself with stubborn hatchlings. If they don't eat a pinky by the third attempt they are thrown in with my lone Lampropeltis (Cali King in the photo). I only get maybe 4 to 6 stubborn hatchlings each summer out of 100 to 150 total hatchlings.

Unfortunately I don't live close to the Kisatchies range ANYMORE. I say anymore because while I'm a Canadian who lives in Toronto, Ontario, I DID attend and graduate from Broadmoor High School in Baton Rouge.

I recall many excursions in the mid 90s to the areas surrounding Baton Rouge in quest of Corns. Never did find one. Years later I read in a book that many Corns in the Baton Rouge area were caught and sold into the pet trade. That explains why friends and I never saw one. Not even a D.O.R....lol

BB

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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

>>Unfortunately I don't live close to the Kisatchies range ANYMORE. I say anymore because while I'm a Canadian who lives in Toronto, Ontario, I DID attend and graduate from Broadmoor High School in Baton Rouge.

Ahhh, us cajuns are just displaced Canadians anyway, Right? LOL. Sure, we've been "lost" for ~400 years, but still!

>>I recall many excursions in the mid 90s to the areas surrounding Baton Rouge in quest of Corns. Never did find one. Years later I read in a book that many Corns in the Baton Rouge area were caught and sold into the pet trade. That explains why friends and I never saw one. Not even a D.O.R....lol

Nah, the reason you never found one is because they really don't occur very commonly in that area. Baton Rouge is the VERY tip of their range int ot the west. You have to go a few more dozen miles east of the Mississippi River before the cornsnakes really start showing up at all. I did have a K.I.B. (killed in Bathtub) juvie brought to me in the herp lab one time. So, I did see a baby one in BR, but I have always suspected it was an escapee and not a wild one. That's how rare they really are in that habitat - and have been long before the pet trade. Head up a couple of parishes to the NE near the MS border, and you've got a fairly good population, and they look greenish due to the high amount of yellow in their background!

The Kisatchie corns, of course, occur about a 2.5 hour drive west or north-west of BR. You would have had a good chance of finding one if you ever went look in some of the "sweet" spots. They tend to be locally and temporaily abundant. You can find them if you are in the RIGHT area during the RIGHT time. Otherwise, you have a VERY low chance of seeing one.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven