Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK guys I’m thinking about getting two pair of alterna this year. I’m partial to light bluish grey intermediate types (I’ve attached a photo of my favorite Thayeri to illustrate what I mean by intermediate pattern, I think you guys might call this triads with alternates) but I also am intrigued by the potential for variation so here is my question. If you wanted to keep 2.2 of any single locality which one would be 1) the least common 2) the most variable but 3) lean towards light bluish grey intermediate types.

From what I’ve been able to gather over the last couple of days River Road is likely to be the answer but there I also have some questions. The Alterna page states that the collecting habitat is from “14 to 30 miles west of Lajitas”. Perhaps this is just me but given desert habitat I would expect that this range would include several sights that exhibit unique and specific habitat characteristics so the second question is, as a rule is river road considered a single local or is it generally further subdivided. Tim Gebhart has further identified his River Road locality animals as “big hill” animals. Would the offspring of a “big hill” animal crossed to a specimen from some other spot along River Road still be considered still be considered local.

THAYERI WITH BUSY GROUND PATTERN. I know this is classic leonis but this pattern on alterna would be intermediate between blairs and alterna morphs/pattern.

you'll find folks with animal pairings from a multitude of spots on the RR all the way from Lajitas to the windmill. Some of the more common pairings in that stretch are; Lajitas, Big Hill, Panther Canyon (just west of Big Hill), Mud Flats and Windmill. I'm sure others are available.

To the true locality purists the closer the pairing the better but you'd need to investigate the history of any animals you wish to purchase and try and trace the roots.

The locality purists are not elitest at all. There is no "negative" implication in the term generic, it is only perceived. The locality purists only gripe is when it's obvious animals are not labeled as they should be.

To me you could breed a windmill with a Lajitas and you'd have a "generic river road" haha... that's a 30 mile stretch through Brewster and Presidio counties but all on the River Road.

So it's all about what you like, and that boils down to the animals. Just make sure you like them, and the rest will take care of itself.

“So it's all about what you like, and that boils down to the animals. Just make sure you like them, and the rest will take care of itself”

I’ve no problem with that but I’m kind of a “don’t OVER line breed” elitists. Through the years I’ve used locality as one means of determining that I wasn’t getting closely related stock when building a breeding group. In this case I want to make sure that I don’t alienate the bulk of locality enthusiasts by having a breeding group that is from locals that are too widely dispersed if that makes sence.

For the most part there are enough active collectors bringing in animals that you can easily get locality breeding without line breeding. However, line breeding is the way to exploit a trait or shift your breeding stock to a certian look.

There are a lot of ways to get locality animals that are not related.....
You can find somebody with a wildcaught breeding stock (at least two pairs). You can get animals from more than one person, or effect a trade on one half of a sibling pair.

Or my favorite, come out and join the hunt... If you catch just one animal and pair it to a captive produced animal from that locality there is no way that is line breeding. And there is just no way to complety describe the satisfaction of finding an alterna.

Lance

Is this kind of what your looking for?

That be the look. It would seem to me that given variation in the number af alternates, speckling and triad width those would produce the variability I'm looking for. I really like the potential for producnign something unique even if only to my eye.

1) the least common
2) the most variable but
3) lean towards light bluish grey intermediate types.

Black Gap's like the male in this pic may fit the description of the animals you are considering..

~ Mike Russo

There's the ol' Johnson/Doherty line popping up again!

Been spending some time on Dan's site too and gotta say the variety is impressive. Interesting how similar some BG alterna are to ones from RR. The link is to one from Tim G's site that also knocks my socks off!
similar alterna

I think you will like some of the Hueco's for lights colors and blue look. However you could also find some of that same look in Sanderson's, Juno's or 277s.

The busy snakes or the ones with what we call "triplets" are more River Road, Christmas, Black Gap type animals.

If you are looking to swing out to Texas and try your luck at finding your own I would say the most AWE inspiring road to cruise is the River Road.. by far... The first time I saw this road it gave me butterflies in my stomach! Come to think of it, I still get them most nights before cruising or hunting.

You are going in the right direction by checking the Alterna Breeders page first and going from there. Good Luck in getting your pair of Alterna. I hope you find as much fascination in the Animals as we do...

Besides... Who can own just one Alterna...

Best Wishes,

Steven

..Can be had from Jeff Davis, Brewster and Presidio counties... I would look at the breeder / locality photos of animals from those areas and just decide which one you like best. I myself like the ones from the souther parts of the above counties the best.... River Road, Christmas, and Black Gap.

and I concur that RR, Xmas Mnt, and BG seem to have the variety more busy pattern I'm looking for. If I settle on RR animals I'll just be carefull to get animals from fairly close collection sites. Given what I saw on D Johnson's site getting 2.2 completely unrelated might not be any problem at all!

.. the collection site being too close, after all think about how reproductive behavior works in the wild. Female is ready, she smells nice, male is close enough to figure that out and tracks her down... Boom done deal... They might be related, who knows, but it is the way nature works.

Lance