Reptile & Amphibian Forums

New poster in this forum, although I'm not new to kingsnake.
I noticed a post earlier, and I wanted to post this question not so much to the individual, but to the group as a whole.
The poster had stated that he purchased an animal from a source that wanted this animal to be sold as a pet- not as a feeder.
I suppose my question is whether you think this is an ethical thing to do. To purchase an animal that was intended for use as a pet, for feeding to another animal.
I just don't think this is the best thing to do. With so many sources for feeder stock these days, why would you deceive someone like that. Further, why would you use an animal that was raised to be a pet as a feeder?
I undertand that feeder are what feeders are. No difference in cows, mice, roaches, etc. Yet, in some parts of the world, dogs and cats are eaten, yet most of us would be not like to think of Fido or fluffy as menu items. I guess it's just a matter or our own values that we place on these animals.
Please, I'm not picking on anyone. I just wanted to get a feel for opinions on ethics.
Regards;
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

I agree that it's not right to feed off an animal sold or adopted as a pet. Breeding them, however, is a different story. As long as the animal is treated properly I don't see anything wrong with breeding them and using the offspring as feeders or future breeders.

All of my adult rats are pets and treated very well. They will never be used as feeders. I don't have anything that can eat a full grown rat anyway. They are bred occasionally, and some of the offspring are kept as future pets and the rest are humanely euthanized and used as feeders.

Wpw why do I bother replying to these threads when nobody posts here any more? Why do people start threads then never follow up?

thats the way it works, i have put a ton of post on this forum and gotten nothing, if a person isnt interested they arent going to respond. as far as follow up on the other persons behalf, they probobly arent that interested either, even though they started the thread, go figuer. and then on the other hand you have people that start threads dont get the answer they want so they start another thread, re word it, and then re post it. on this thread, i find that people that buy "pets" and use them as feeders are not thinking. a pet rat costs much more than a feeder rat, so if they wanna spend way too much money on something let them, its their own problem.

Adam

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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

and then on the other hand you have people that start threads dont get the answer they want so they start another thread, re word it, and then re post it. on this thread, i find that people that buy "pets" and use them as feeders are not thinking. a pet rat costs much more than a feeder rat, so if they wanna spend way too much money on something let them, its their own problem.
>>
>>Adam

THIS is what I think too. People post to get the answer they want validated and when that doesn't happen, or a fight doesn't ensue....they get bored. Or maybe they are just super busy, like me.

Personally I don't get buying pets as pets even. A rat breeder with the whole 'rattery' thing and contracts and pet only get $20 plus bucks for their beasties. This seems a bit excessive. But then too they believe they shouldn't be bred before 6 months and then (go figure!) the females are only good for a litter or two at that. So I guess they need to get that much to get anywhere. Those dollar a piece pups I have manage to pay for themselves. Considering I just put a bunch of dumbo hairless into our feeder cage at work I don't get the elitist thing anyway. Must be I've been doing this too long.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Yea the "ratteries" with their contracts are a bit ridiculous. The cost isn't really an issue to me, but the CONTRACT is a huge issue.

Have you ever read one of them? What a joke. When I started out with rats I was looking for rats from a rattery until I saw those contracts. No breeding or they can confiscate the litter and the adults. They will "check up" on you at any old time to see how their rats are doing. You basically sign away your rights to everything just for a pet rat.

Sorry but I'm not going to pay for the privilege of having some psychotic rat breeder snoop around whenever they feel like it.

>>Sorry but I'm not going to pay for the privilege of having some psychotic rat breeder snoop around whenever they feel like it.
I agree that the whole contract thing seems eccessive. However, I also respect that these are animals that they bred. If contracts is part of them doing business, then I simply will not do business with them.
Besides, don't lab rats/mice breed better anyways? Correct me if I'm wrong, but fancies are bred for things other than their ability to produce strong, large litters. I would think you would have a better 'bang for buck' using lab rats/mice.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

True, but I don't really breed my rats for feeders. That's just a fringe benefit and a way to keep their numbers down.

I bred mice and now african soft furred rats strictly for feeders.

Well i breed fancy mice just because they look cooler than the white ones and i havent really seen any difference in litter size, in fact i think the fancies are alittle stronger, i have had a few breeders going for months now and they havent slowed down where with the white mice i think they tend to wear out alittle earlier and easier, but that is just my observation

Adam

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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

>>Well i breed fancy mice just because they look cooler than the white ones and i havent really seen any difference in litter size, in fact i
Just out of curiosity, how many mice are you getting per litter?
Most of the female lab mice I've used in the past average about 21 pups.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

Personally i have never seen any rodent average 21 pups in a litter, but i get upwards of 12-14 i guess average, and the plus side is if i get a really cool one ("pet quality" i can trade it to the store i work at for crickets, so it works out great. but i have never seen any rodent average 21.

Adam
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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

There are so many different strains of lab mice that it varies a lot. The ones with big litters are probably something like swiss websters, which are bred specifically for large litters.. like 20-30 apparently.

Where do you aquire something like that? those crazy rodent breeders?

Adam

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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

You mean swiss webster mice? Wish I knew of a decent source. I know they can be ordered from lab supply sources like Harlan and others, but I'm not sure if they deal with the general public or if there are minimum order sizes.

I used to get my mice as 'extras' from a friend who was attending a University, lab mice.

I've also had constant litter sizes of between 18-24 pups every 3-4 weeks using white feeder mice from PetCo. It IS hit and miss, using mice from PetCo. Sometimes you end up with prolific breeders, sometimes they're just duds. But if I figure these mice are coming from breeders that want large and constant litters, so they're probably using something like Swiss Websters.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

That's pretty good, all of my mice when I bred them were from feeder breeders, a few from petco. They were both colored and albino, and usually got 12-15. Max I ever got was 18 once I think.

What are you feeding your mice?

>>What are you feeding your mice?
I currently don't have any rodents. Just bugs. My bugs get hormone free chicken lay mash as a base feed and scrap vegies from when I'm cooking. Mostly carrot, potato, and assorted greens.
When I have mice, I usually feed dry dog food, along with some breakfast cereal. They seem to LOVE cheeriohs, but I've used raisin bran, corn flakes, even rice krispies as well.
I've tried using the lab rodent chow. They eat it, but grudgingly, it seems.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

>>There are so many different strains of lab mice that it varies a lot. The ones with big litters are probably something like swiss websters, which are bred specifically for large litters.. like 20-30 apparently.

I got some albino mice from a wholesaler in NJ that we got in to the store where I work and they are huge and very prolific. They tend to take a couple months more to start but then kick out 15-25 per litter for six to eight litters. These are monster moms......small rat sized and they raise all their pups 90% of the time. I hate not having color but any attempts I've tried to mix in color tends to ruin all the nice traits and 'dumb down' the albinos. So I guess I can believe in some strains.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Where on the east coast do you live if you are getting mice from NJ, i am up in VT so i am curious

thanks
Adam

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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

>>Where on the east coast do you live if you are getting mice from NJ, i am up in VT so i am curious
>>
>>thanks
>>Adam

I am in central upstate, Finger Lakes region. Our pet store, where I work, goes on twice a month trips to NJ to handpick our Marine (and some Tropical) fish. It is a 4 hr one way trip. While down there we get whatever else is available and good. Mice are more expensive (pay 50cents normally but from there it is 75cents each) but we get parakeets if local supply is low and reptiles sometimes besides fish.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

How's breeding you soft Furs going? I just started (tring to anyways) Any hints tips to get them started?
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Rex- "normal" orange fire)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Glutany- German Giant Mix)
0.1.0 Okeetee Corn (Okatee)
1.1.0 Spotted Python (Hotdog and Shoelace)

The soft furs are breeding pretty well, good enough that I got rid of all my smelly mice.

As for tips, well be careful these bastards can BITE. The worst is my original female. [bleep] just tagged me again this morning as I was giving them some oats, I had my hand at the top of tha 15g tank dropping the grain in for them and she jumped up and latched on to my fingertip. [bleep] wouldn't let go either. If she wasn't my best producer she'd have been fed off already. Now that I have surplus she might go anyway.

I feed them Harlan 2018 lab block in hoppers and occasional grains and vegetables. Grain more often than the vegetables.

The main thing is to just be patient. They seem to be a little slower to get started than mice.

They also need a decent amount of space, like 10g minimum but bigger is better.

The fuzzies are more active than mice at a earlier age so any enclosure has to be mouse proof or they will escape. 1/2" bars or mesh can be escaped easily.

If contracts is part of them doing business, then I simply will not do business with them.

That would be exactly my point. No sense in wasting time and money.

>>Besides, don't lab rats/mice breed better anyways? Correct me if I'm wrong, but fancies are bred for things other than their ability to produce strong, large litters. I would think you would have a better 'bang for buck' using lab rats/mice.

I have had generally available rats...some ones envied by ratteries....I had a tailless line, cool but useless for feeders since they rarely were very fertile. Dumbo, blues, hairless, pointed.
I have not owned a lab strain of rat....I would really have to believe in it before I paid for that. The price on them is steep too.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

I personally don't like lab rats casue to me they are breed to have some kinda medical problems for testing and such. And to me it would seem that fancy mice aren't breed like that.
Just my opinion...
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Rex- "normal" orange fire)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Glutany- German Giant Mix)
0.1.0 Okeetee Corn (Okatee)
1.1.0 Spotted Python (Hotdog and Shoelace)

>>Wpw why do I bother replying to these threads when nobody posts here any more? Why do people start threads then never follow up?

Very sorry for not following up earlier. You are right, very rude of me. I'm new(ish) to this forum, though I've been posting on other kingsnake forums for years. Some forums don't have replies for weeks. I was simply giving time for others to respond.
I raise quite a few different feeders, mostly insects. Occassionally I will raise some mice for pinkies. I treat all my feeders with respect, and I am humane. To me, a feeder roach is simply food for my reptiles. However, I certainly understand that some people do keep roaches as pets, and I try to respect the individual person as well.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi@yahoo.com

My comments weren't meant for you specifically, but to the forum as a whole.

I've noticed that people tend to post more when others are posting, If the thread sits untouched for days or weeks, nobody will ever post to it.

Case in point, I posted my whiny little complaint and now there are a whole bunch of replies. =)

It is unethical to purchase pet for a food source.

It is also unethical to disrespect any food animal, or laugh at it while it is being killed. RESPECT is what nature is all about and any herper or person that disrespects any animal shouldnt be in the hobby ...
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Safari Tom
See'em Touch'em Save'em
www.SafariTom.com