Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Where do you all estimate Spider prices leveling at this year?
Just curious...

...understand why people ask these kind of questions.

If you feel you really want a spider, then pay the current price. If you think they will drop, then wait, but realize you may be a year behind on a good breeding project.

These sort of questions simple generate needless arguments.

If you have followed the market at all on co-doms/doms you should be able to make a calculated estimate on your own.

The snake is only worth as much as you are willing to pay for it.

..and I feel that spiders are worth more than they fetch now.

-John

They should stay around $600-$700 to the public. At that price EVERYONE will want them and some higher end pet stores will be selling them, so the demand will be very high, this should lead to prices staying up, as there is no need to drop the price if they are selling so well.
This is nothing but my personal opinion the only way we can really tell is wait and see.

J&J REPTILES
sales@jnjnreptiles.com
www.jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

I am glad the prices are where they are currently this discourages folks who will just buy these animals on inpulse, and the poor ball pythons will just be treated like the poor iguanas of the world. These animals require the proper care that they deserve it takes alot of time , and capitial to produce these beauiful morphs, if you dont want tp pay the price go buy a corn snake.

This is one of "those" questions that might be better left unanswered.
I am not saying that it's not a good question.
I am sure that a lot of other people are also curious.
Rather it is more likely a question that you might like to silently ponder....rather than posting to a forum board.
You know what they say about curiosity...
As well, my point is that, you might not be well advised to take any stock market tips from a question which you post on a financial forum either. There are too many unknown variables involved.
Forecasting the weather is a much safer bet....and we all know how accurate that can be...or not. LOL.
Some of the people who answer your question about this morph might not even keep any spiders...or whatever morph in question. Their input might not be helpful to you....or the true breeders.
Even an answer from a breeder might not reflect how things actually turn out.
I am sure that most of us who breed Ball Pythons sorta cringe every time we hear about market speculation.
The key word here is SPECULATION.
If I were sitting at a poker table, I might speculate (to myself) about what cards the other players are holding. But, out of respect for the other players, I would not ask to see their hand during the bets. I also doubt anyone would oblige.
(not to mention that it could make me look a little silly.)
Everyone is curious about the future. But that’s part of the magic of doing the hobby/job we all love.
Let the year unfold as it will. Then we can look back and see how interesting it really is.
Best Wishes on everyone’s season.
And....no you may not see my cards.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Lol...I thought is was a pretty innocent question.

I just wanted to see if I would be better off picking up an 06 now for $700-$900 or waiting till the 07's started hatching and settled around June/July or even August (Daytona) to pick one up.

Either way, I see your points regardless. This is a questioned best answered offline.

Gerry,
Thank you for the email.
I am glad that you took my response so well. It was my intention to make a point...without being rude or inconsiderate.
Unfortunately, I was a little late posting the response....And a few others took matters into their own hands.
Your question, in itself, was actually rather innocent. I was just trying to answer it before someone actually had a chance to try to answer with their OPINION...or, before someone started chewing on you.
I understand your curiosity. As well as your dilemma. It is always tough to tell when the best time to purchase might be. This is always due to market fluctuations. Some people stay sitting on the sidelines wondering, "When is the best time to purchase??? I think that this indecision can actually keep people from entering the hobby.
People say, "Well, I'd like to buy into one of these projects...but, I'll wait till next season and see where the prices are."
(Six years later they are kicking themselves for not getting into the project back when they were first thinking about it.)
You are right. This is not a question to ask on a forum board...but a lot of people are curious.
I hope my answer will instill a little stability.
As for your future projects...
The water is warm now! Come on in!
Good luck with whatever project you choose. They are all fun and exciting. You only loose precious time by waiting around.
Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Harlin,

As always a job well done! If you ever need a job as a P.R. guy you know where to look I always enjoy your perspective as well as the tone that you deliver it in. Keep it up! Your fan, Brian(BHB)

I agree 100% with you Brian, Harlin's a class act!
Thank you again Harlin, I appreciate your emails and advice.

Hi Harlin,

As usual your perspective and your logic prevail. Insightful post!
-----
Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Hey Kyle!
Thanks for the kind words.
I can tell that we see eye to eye.
You have a very upbeat outlook on things.
I've seen some of those animals you've been posting...NICE!
Keep up the good work.
Take care,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

It would only be pointless if there was no reason for concern.

Saying that only breeders of spiders can add to this thread is rediculous.....

Saying that spiders will not go below $600 next year is also rediculous.

They were already posted for $600 -$700 on KS. The ones being posted for more.........are still being posted........there is a reason. $800 is more than most are willing to pay. Plain and simple.

To think that they are not going to go down to $400 -$500 or less dollars this year is the same untruthful, unrealistic pyramid scheming that will insure a precipatice fall in price. NOT SPECULATION. The market has to be real with real potential and actual customers with cash to be sustained.

As far as combo's being the savior. Combo genetics and combo physical appearance have only watered down and muddled the rareness ( or lack there of) the reason that the value of BP skyrocketed. That rareness (or perceived) was the fuel for the BP phenomenon. The same perception that is trying to continued here by saying people shouldn't discuss value. So it is OK to tell everyone that your ball python is going to make them $$$$$$$$ but no one should talk about $$$$$$$$ other than at sales times.

So for a realistic appraisal on 07 prices, look and the last two years in price reductions and remember that without new players the price is going down. Spiders and Mojaves....How much were they two years ago $4500 to $600 asking. Does any one wonder why pastel males are $75.

I have to agree that bargin seekers will be able to pick up 07 spiders in the $400 to $500 range. That is realistic. It's not only speculation, but TRENDS. And the trend is the co-dom traits are falling twice as fast as the recessives. Just look at the albinos. They been around since the mid 90's and still have yet to fall below $1,000 each, more for females.

Speculation is not pointless.
Anyone who is willing to invest their time, energy and money into a project, should certainly think in speculative terms. This is common sense. I will agree, it is good business sense to speculate.
As well, I am glad that others are willing to add to this thread…regardless of what they keep, breed or even aspire to own. I had hoped my point was more clearly stated above. The fact is that even a breeder can not read the future. So, these OPINIONS are not something that you should base your investment/hobby/breeding strategy on. And, as I stated above, perhaps these are questions that are better for us to ponder… (quietly)rather than to try to answer. (Unless you own a Crystal Ball) Pun intended!
Combos do not muddle anything. They add to the texture of our projects. It opens up a whole new world of opportunities for both Seasoned Breeders and those who are NEW to the Reptile Community.
I do not know of any snake or combo (or the price attached to it)that is the savior of our hobby. Rather it is our attitude and the perceptions, be they Positive or negative, that WE as part of this community attach to the hobby.
This “sky is falling” type of mentality only attaches negative feelings.
The market DOES have to be REAL. It does need to have NEW players. So why run off the new guys with negative connotations? As well, there is no need to blast anyone who asks a genuine question with a negative or abrasive answer. This is why I attempted to answer Gerry’s question in a polite and honest manner.
(I know Gerry understood this.)
This market might be a pyramid….I prefer to see it as an upside down pyramid. I don’t see a reason to limit my own possibilities.
There is a vast untapped market out there. Today’s newbie could be your customer of tomorrow.
I just know that if WE do welcome them with open arms…and WE have a positive outlook…they will be more interested in being involved in our hobby. After all, nobody likes a wet blanket.
Prices can be affected by irresponsible or Responsible Actions…and negative or Positive Reinforcement.
I always say, “If you keep talking like Chicken Little….You might end up looking like Cordon Bleu.”
The power of perception drives this market as well. I will rather attach positive ideas to the way I perceive things. But, maybe it is because I really do believe in the Ball Python Phenomenon. I know a lot of other people believe in it as well. If you want a REAL market…you must treat it REAL.
This market is what WE make of it. Enthusiasm and Inspiration IS Infectious. Ra! Ra! Ra!
But seriously, we should all work with one another to promote this Phenomenon to the next generation.
That sort of Responsible behavior is the only thing that will insure OUR market remains REAL.
Respectfully,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Harlan,
Your two posts to this thread are a a very well articulated breath of fresh air and certainly frame my personal views as well. Very well stated!
A big fan,
Grant Whitmer

Thank you Grant.
I appreciate your input.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

Hello, Virid I agree 100%. I would love to know why so many people keep mentioning positive attitude. The vast majority of people whom I see engaging in commerce of any kind tend to have a great attitude and seem 1000% positive in dealing with the public. I mean lets be real who's going to buy anything from someone who has the attitude of a republican on steroids. I've always thought having a positive attitude was absolute and yes I know you also mean having a positive outlook about the industry and it's future.

Unfortunately we can have all the positive karma emanating from our being but we still have to deal with supply and demand. Some have implied that some people sell what they produce at below what the true market value of the animal is. I personally don't think that happens much if at all. The big truth is that demand has not kept up with the supply hence prices dropping. I do this myself as a means of income so please don't think I don't have an interest, but I've never thought that I by my little old self could affect the reptile industry in a negative way.

But hey that's just my opinion and I've been around since 1989 and seen quite a lot happen in that period of time. In ending I would like to make a suggestion. Maybe someone on the forum knows someone who is like a economics genius, or has been awarded a Nobel in economics to give us the straight scoop on why the prices have fallen so drastically in the ball python morph industry. So does anyone know someone like that, if so give him/her the E.E.I's and tell them to get to work. Big curious brains want to know. Thanks for taking a look and take care. Andrew

Hey Andrew,
Nice to see your point of view. It is good to view the subject from every angle.
A LOT of people see the posts we leave on this very public forum. Our opinions and sentiments affect everyone who hears...or reads our words.
I like to think of Alan Greenspan...
I mean if this guy were to even squeese out a little tiny fart it could send stocks down 3 points!
Perhaps we should be aware of the scents...or messages we are ALL sending out.
I prefer the scent of roses rather than farts. ha ha.
If we want to increase demand, it won't happen if we sound depressing.
I love this business as much as I am sure you do.
I just think that it will be easier to increase demand without negativity. It will draw new people into our world. Even when things don't go my way...I try to focus on the positive.
(it might not always work. But, I try)
And, I would avoid ANYONE on steroids.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES

Harlin,

I am not sure my point was made above but here it is in a few short sentences..........

My issues with your thread above was this.......
The issue here is not whether "negativity" will effect the overall market or not but rather the opinion of yours and many that discussion of "reality" is not valid.

Telling this original thread starter not to worry about the 07 value and even in some cases saying it won't go down is not reality.

Telling him that it is going to go down to probably half is not "negative" it is reality.

After all he came here asking about $$$$ value not about the beauty of ball pythons or pride of ownership or how he only hopes to own such beautiful animals etc etc etc. He specifically asked about worth current and possibly future. This spin to "not talk about reality" is really starting to bother me. I have also been breeding herps for two decades and it bothers me that this attitude of not addressing the reality of the BP market is going to hurt the herp business not help it.

Chris

Hello, I don't think telling someone that the price of most ball morphs will drop is depressing or speaking negative. That's a fact of life and if your doing it right it shouldn't matter that much to the person your speaking with. After all what your doing is helping them start a business and a genuine profit might not be seen for years to come. The small drops in price that seem do be going on are just part of what's to be expected and adjusted for. Thanks again for the looks see and take care. Andrew

I don't think telling someone that prices will go down as supply increases is negative or depressing either. But if someone new or even if they have been around for awhile ask a question and get ripped over that is both negative and depressing. As well as being embarassing to all of us as a whole. All to often peoples replies are either rude or intended to make people feel stupid. It is to easy in this anonymous world to be less polite then we may be in person. Every question should be treated with respect and every answer tempered with common courtesy. These are the things that keep people coming back.

Jeff

Good points Jeff!
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

First of all foremost this is a hobby that some of have gotten so interested in that we researched the biological and genetic side of are animals that we now know how to produce morphs which is another plus in keeping these beautiful animals. Now some of hobbyist have decided to start breeding are beloved pets and are producing morphs and new morphs that we have decided to turn are hobby into a buisness and these are people who I call expert hobbyisit, and I am now one of those, its takes alot of money and time to build a large collection of these beautiful snakes, I know because I am now in the process of building my collection, but to tell you the truth I like all of my animals from the normals to the 100% hets and someday the many morphs that I will produce, as far as the market is concerned I feel that there always will be one espically for those of us who have decided to take the long road and purchase only 100% hets and breed are own morphs, or visuals just like any other investment you should always look at things from a long term approach , good breeding, good luck , but most of all take care of your beautiful snakes they are like precious living gems .

I guess the real question, then, isn't "will" the prices go down as much as "why will" the prices go down. Not the economical, supply and demand reason but the it's no longer the popular morph, genetic flaws, or simple boredom reasons.

If breeder A has morph "ZW" for $8,000 and breed B buys a pair. Breeder B gets 6 $8,000 "ZW's" and sells them for $100. Why does Breeder A and C now "Have" to sell for $2,000? Why do the morphs not hold? Once the few $100's are gone, the price should return if all others are still at $8,000.

Guy reference point-Cars:
Ferraris are always expensive. The price does not come down simply because Lamborghini has a new, cheaper model. If I buy a Ferrari for $250K and sell it for $14K, Ferrari doesn't send me hate mail and the price of the remaining Ferraris does not drop. Ferrari laughs at my loss and makes their next Million.

But the most important point: Enjoy what you do. They are only worth what you are willing to pay.
-----
Lead us not into temptation. We can find it on our own.

Guy reference point - correction:

If guys could take home a Ferrari or Lamborghini and turn around and produced 10-20 of them annually - Every guy would have one or two in the garage - the guy making the real money is the one installing garage add ons - and the wifes mini van is parked down the street.

There is a uniqueness to this industry that cannot compare to many others in that every animal sold becomes your competition.
-----
Tosha

This is very true I would love to be in the person that produces vision cages position right now , they must have orders coming out of there ears with so many of us getting into this hobby now , breed on.

Chris,
Lets talk about reality.
This is not an attack. I value your input.
Not once in any of my posts did I ever say "reality" or the discussion of it, is not valid. This is certainly not my opinion. In FACT the opposite is my view. I too would be upset if we were not allowed to speak our minds about reality.
REALITY is that neither you, nor I...or anyone else can predict the future. That is fact.
You will also notice that I never said market prices for any snake would rise, fall or level out. Perhaps this is because of my understanding of the fact that I do not know the future.
I do not believe in misleading anyone for the sake of gain.
But on the flip side, I will not whine about POSSIBILITY of the sky falling. I will focus on the bright side.
I too have been in the business for more than 2 decades. This is what I love. I make a living doing what I love as a full time business. I just retuned from teaching herpetology classes for our local school district. I have been teaching herp classes more than 15 years. (Yes, they do pay me...graduating with a degree helps. For anyone interested in a career feel welcome to contact me.) I breed a lot of reptiles, not only Ball Pythons.
Some of you might think that I am stumbling around, gazing at the world behind rose colored glasses....perhaps Tosha's line.
But I know differently.
This post started with a question. I did my best to answer it in a way that I felt was responsible. It is my opinion that giving a forecast of prices slipping by "Half", as you said, is not very truthful, responsible, or positive. It has no basis in REALITY. And, although you are entitled to your opinion,
your forecast of impending doom can affect ALL of OUR market.
Chris, your opinion does matter.
One person can affect the views of many people.
Many people can cause change.
We need to stick together in this business.
It makes us more powerful to have some unity.
People with the power of unity can protect their interests.
Tosha, yes people should be able to discuss the market. We are not the Gestapo here. But, what if you are looking for answers that no one can really give you? Questions of the future?
I did my best here.
Gerry asked the question.
Gerry saw my point of view...and he even agrees with it. Ask him. He seems like a pretty cool guy too!
He asked the question. I tried to answer it, without jumping on his case...like some people DID in private and public messages to him. (On a side note: There were many people who were supportive and positive in their private messages to Gerry)
Although I know that this thread began with a market question...
Now it IS about the negative VS. positive.
This was called this the thread from hell. But instead I see a group of people involved in a very interesting topic. All of our views are important. I think this is an important issue, not only to the Ball Python keepers/breeders, but for all of us involved in Reptiles.
Right now some of you might even have advertisements posted on the classified board. Do you state in the advertisement, "This snake will be worthless tomorrow, so, I am selling it for half price today....Next year you might have to pay someone to take it."
Perhaps not. Maybe it would be a poor promotion . So why come here and say it? I would rather not buy from someone who drinks from a half empty glass of water.
And then wipes their face with that wet blanket.
You used Mojave Balls as fine example. Here is a snake that was irresponsibly marketed. Even today this snake remains an under priced animal with plenty of REAL value. It is a shame that the animal was devalued by greed and irresponsible pricing. But, I would STILL BUY ONE!
REALITY is that the prices will do whatever they are going to do.
REALITY is that we do not know the future...but can have influence over it.
REALITY is that we have three ways to influence control over the market. #1. Quality, #2. Promotion to create NEW DEMAND, and #3. Responsible, yet Realistic Pricing/and innovative yet Honest Marketing.
Perhaps you can think of some more ways help?
It is difficult to promote anything with a negative approach. Good promotion will help add new demand.
So, I will continue teaching Herpetology classes from College level to Kindergarten. Sharing my enthusiasm with new people.
Promoting what I love.
Some will find a new hobby or make it a business...
They might one day become a customer of mine or perhaps yours!
Even if they never buy into ANY reptile breeding project, perhaps they will gain a new appreciation or respect for Reptiles....or even us reptile keepers.
Let the market do what it will. But lets not shoot it down before it gets a chance at its own potential.
Best Wishes on your hatching season.
Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

I could have this better myself you are correct in all your points to the exact, know one can truely predict the market but we can devalue you it by creating some false panic of a crash, the value of these beauitiful snakes depends on us the customes and breeders , thats why I will continue to spend good money on balls it simple it keeps the market strong , just remember what comes around goes around.

Harlin.

I will just have to disagree with you.

If you truly believe that you can not fairly predict the value of spiders or any morph for that fact, than I am suprised. That is the "reality". You very nicely and eloquently state your position, but to me it still feels like making people feel safe about something that may (and likely) not be the "REALITY".

It really does boil down to this for the BP market.

If you can't convince quite a few more people to invest than the market for thousand dollar morphs is going to be extremely limited i.e. crash There is a reason every "big breeder" keeps stating this....It is the truth. I have heard the term "SLOW" from everyone of them. Slow would indicate a new REALITY, with changes coming.

So, Good luck with your endevors, but if someone comes here asking what likely is going to happen.... I am going to respond to them with "reality" not phrase and prose about the unpredicability of the world etc etc. "Last year" spiders are not selling on KS for $700. So reality would tell you they are going to precipitally fall when this years babies come. Why???? Because this type of morphs grows exponentially. So if there was an over supply last year @700 then that combined with the pending flood of this years babies PREDICTS less. REAL experience would say half.

I also completely disagee with your view on Mojaves. I do remeber the individual who started at least some of the supposed issues. He had the best reply I have seen by one of the well known breeders. It was.... "I am selling them for what people will pay?? Plan and simple!!" So others were still nailing a few "suckers " ( I apologize to all who purchased at that price) for $7.5K while the actual market value was much less. How do you think those people felt when the REAL market value was brought to REALITY. How is that helping the Herp market. If there was a REAL market. His few would have been a flash in the pan. The fact is there wasn't a demand for more at $7.5. And if this was in response to the other "MK" drop. Than I also disagree, becasue if there was a market, his few dozen babies would have been consumed and the market would have adjusted to the higher value.

Here is another dirty little BP market secret...IMO from personal observations at shows....KS prices are the HIGH end of the market. Prices at most shows, especially Sunday afternoon, are 75% or LESS of KS asking.

Good Luck,

Chris

socrates said that you could quickly judge the level of enlightenment within an individual by observing how peacefully or violently they disagree with someone who simply has a different view....what does that say about a lot of us snakebreeders as a whole? when someone takes your unique opinion as a threat to the point of engendering a condescending tone, it may say a lot about their level of emotional intelligence

i believe that more sophistocated individuals are about as amused by our heated rants as the masses are by jerry springer(lol)

...how pathetic to waste away so much as a breath of life, thumping our chests about how much we disagree with someone else's view on snake breeding/market dynamics? freedom is something worth dying on a hill for, but snake breeding/market dynamics probably is not....and yet, we have all caught ourselves pausing on jerry springer occasionally...some to chime in, and some to laugh...i hope i never get so personally threatened by someone else's mere opinion, that i would ever feel the need to belittle or berate them openly like so many do on this forum...and yet i thank you for the amusement!
and as far as the "real market" is concerned,...here's a thought, maybe if we all badmouth the lavender pied project everyday for a month or so on the forum, ralph will be forced to sell me one for $50 bucks lol...in my opinion, the market is as real as it gets....some of us may alter the ultimate reality of it in our own minds, but in the end, even the big boys must bow down to the sum of universal law

now that is funny

Very Very true. Socrates, Jerry Springer, the amusement. I feel that this market is a self fulfilling prophecy. If someone asks the future price/value of a particular morph and someone gives the opinion that it will be half today's price/value, enough people will panic and drop prices to 3/4. Or, the demand will drop because of fear. This leads to the breeders/sellers dropping their prices to keep up. This then starts the ball rolling for a "See, I told you the prices would fall" scenario. Which then causes another panic. In the end, prices are half what they should be.

I'm not complaining about half price. It allows me to get some awesome animals for cheap. Marketing is a key in any "Market". You have to determine what your "Break even point" is and what you intend to make as a profit. Then determine the amount you need to produce and the price you need to sell at to get that profit. If the numbers don't show up, adjust. And if the sky does fall, buy an umbrella.

Message for everyone: If we do complain and dog enough for anyone to get a lavendar pied for $50, get two and give me a call!!!!

When life gives you lemons, ask for the Tequilla and salt.
-----
Lead us not into temptation. We can find it on our own.

I don't know why this has to be such a taboo topic. Whats the big deal?

The trend usually goes as follows ( I will use the Spider as an example):

06 Spiders are closing out the year at $600-$800 or $300-$500 for really ugly or extreme wobblers or people just dumping their animals.

When the 07 spiders start hatching they will likely be priced at or around $600-$700.

By mid spring the ads will start to pop up with the catch phrase "why take a chance on a baby at x amount when you can get an established juvie for the same price"

Followed by the price on the babies dropping - as more and more babies are born prices will steadily decline.

Yes there will be exceptional animals being born and priced high as well as people who will hold their price. it kind of evens things out.

By Daytona I can easily see people leaving with $400 spiders - I'd be willing to bet some good negotiatiors will leave with ones in the $200 range.

All bets are off if a Super Spider gets produced this year and it's a knock out!
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Tosha

My 2 cents.

I agree, It all depends on whether a Super Spider comes out. Prices are bound to fall. However, they will only fall as low as the seller allows them to. In any market, the price is dictated by how much the buyer wants to spend and the seller wants to make. Someone will always sell for less and someone will always pay a little more. As with all things. The buyer needs to determine how much they are willing to spend.
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Lead us not into temptation. We can find it on our own.

Do some people still think there could be a super spider, haven't there been atleast 100 spider to spider breedings??

There is a statistical probability of getting 1 Super Spider out of 4 eggs. That is probability. Actuallity, you could get all normals or all supers or all spiders. Then there is the theory of the Fatal Gene. We will never know until 2 possible supers are bred and produce all spiders consistantly.

There is always hope
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Lead us not into temptation. We can find it on our own.

If it was a super, we would only need one to produce all spiders right? I realize that there is still a chance of a super, but wouldn't the odds be in the 10's of thousands to 1 by now?? I would love to think that there is a super, believe me I am gonna have a ton of the little guys this year, but from everything I had heard it was pretty far fetched. Craig

Just for information purposes, each egg has a 1 in 4 chance of hatching a "super" spider in a spider(het) x spider (het) breeding.

IE. if you have four eggs, your not gonna get a homozygous for sure, each egg has a 1/4 chance of being super or normal, and a 50% chance of being a spider in the above pairing of spider X spider.

Not trying to jump down anyone's throat just thought I'd add a little clarity to the above post, since both ideas are used interchangeably.

-Dan

Thanks for the clarification. I should have been a little more specific considering we are talking about a possible co-dom.

That is Spider(het)XSpider(Het)=1 out of 4 for Super.

But I'm thinking that ship has sailed and had no passengers.
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Lead us not into temptation. We can find it on our own.

Me too, I'm thinking either lethal or visible super, don't think this is gonna be a true dominant
Dan

First off there is nothing wrong with any type of open dicussion, weather it be about market speculation or who has the biggest balls. Pythons I mean. Second I think there is a difference between price and value. The price of something is always set by the seller. The value on the other hand is set by the buyer and what it is worth to him or her. I for one have quit a few animals that are selling for less now then when I purchased them just six months ago. But believe me their value has only increased in my eyes and goes up every day. What you need to decide is why you are interested in keeping an animal. Are you looking for an interesting and rewarding pet or are you just looking to make a fast buck. Its up to you what its worth.

Jeff

Well said.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

I think 07 Spiders in general will bring in $400-500, however, I think there may be a trend in the near future, where people buy less animals, but higher quality, and will be willing to pay a premium for stunning individuals.

There will come a point where those that do not breed their own rats, will have to make some difficult decisions, concerning the number of snakes in their collection, the amount of actual cash coming in, and the dollars they are spending on rats each month. I think what some will find, and I might be in this group, is that they need to downsize the total number of snakes, but make sure what individuals they do keep, are stunning examples of the morph. I guess quality over quantity.

Thank you all for your posts, input, feedback, opinions and $0.02.

I'm somewhat new to Ball pythons, only been considering them for the past year, but I've kept and bred Boas and other snakes for over a decade. Last year, (thanks to my wife) we looked at adding Ball pythons to our collection and noticed the dropping of prices on what seemed to be a week to week basis. This made me nervous to say the least, but what really kept me at bay from spending heavy was all the pissing matches in the community. We ruffled a few feathers last year asking too many questions that no one wanted or cared to answer at the time or even questioned. Everyone seemed to be at each others throats mainly because of price/money, sides were being chosen, you're either with us or against us! I had hoped that time had passed and a simple question would be received and answered differently these days.

While most answered honestly and politely regardless of opinions, others answered rudely and even took the time to send a few nasty emails expressing their opinions. I think this has hurt the BP market a lot more than supply and demand ever could. I feel it's this attitude that has added to any insecurities some may have had, it's this attitude that has pushed some out and kept others away.

From a supply & demand point of view, we should stop complaining about the drop in prices and surplus and focus on increasing and expanding the demand. A weekend sale may be a short term solution for some, but increasing demand should be a goal for all of us in the long haul, not just Ball pythons.

This is a time where everyone in the hobby should be working together in promoting the hobby or business in a positive light, regardless of market fluctuations. You should want and welcome as many to Ball pythons with open arms Vs ripping them apart because of a question they asked, a comment made, who they bought from or how much they paid. It seems for the past year it's been a blur of heated and deleted threads with regards to Ball Pythons.

I believe guys like Brian and Harlin have the right idea, promote and expand the joys of this hobby and the market will work itself out, one way or another. These same questions are asked in regards to Boa morphs that have also taken a hit in prices, but I don't see a fraction of the hostility shown in regards to Ball pythons. I don't agree in promoting a false perception or misleading anyone to keep prices high. We spent the past year trying to understand the problems with Ball pythons and were asking and focused on the wrong questions! We kept trying to figure out why a snake with so much possibilities and potential (even today!) was losing it's luster so fast?

Today, I think it's great that more people can afford to own a Piebald than there were 3-4yrs ago! I think it's great that more breeders can afford to work on a Lucy project today than there were 2-3yrs ago!

I know some wish these snakes would stay rare and keep charging $20,000 for them. Reality is, you can't limit numbers unless you can somehow control the supply. Since you can not control what others do or how much they produce or what they sell for; wouldn't you rather promote the beauty of it or the prospects of designer morphs using it or simply how great it is that now more people can enjoy it?

IMO, rather than push someone away because they bought a $500 or $200 Spider. Congratulate and welcome them, forward them Kevin's (NERD)Spider poster with all the combos and possibilities using a Spider bred to other morphs!

Just my $0.02!
Sorry for the long post!

I will tell you that sounds exactly how I felt a year ago when I started reading the post on here. But I made the decision that I was doing this (hobby/business) for myself and i wasn't going to let the negative attitudes of others to rob me of my goals. I feel that if you are easily swayed by the comments of others then you really didn't have the conviction or commitment that this undertaking requires. I have read many, many post of people bashing other peoples projects. Maybe it's just to make them feel better about them selves, I don't know. But if you are solidly behind what you are doing then who cares what other people think or say. This hobby/trade is what it is and believe me it is different things to everybody.

Jeff

Bravo Gerry!
You hit on so many topics that I’ve been preaching about for the last few years. While I know that some in the hobby like to pick fights and enjoy conflict. All it does is send a message to potential new clients to stay away. Nobody wants to invest in a market where the “market leaders” are constantly fighting. While it might be an interesting soap opera, what message are we sending? I know all to well lately about being attacked for my beliefs and opinions. You don’t have to agree with me, but you should know that what I say is what I believe. We all have the right to speculate, to ask and answer questions. But we should reflect what we want people to see in our responses. Not selling a bill of goods, but being respectful and courteous with our responses. We should all think of ourselves as “market leaders” and think of when we got into the hobby what we would want to see when we are posting. I’ve always said that when you see two idiots fighting you never think who’s right and who’s wrong, you just see two idiots fighting. Well, momma didn’t raise no idiot
There have been a lot of great post in this thread and these are the discussions that I think will only help strengthen the hobby.
And I agree that if anyone wants to see a group of people acting like true professionals they should hangout on the Boa forum a little. Even when things get tight they are always happy for the person that bought their first Boa. We need to learn from them how to represent this Ball Python forum.
Good job everyone!!! Brian (BHB)

GREAT POST!
I look forward to reading more from you in the future here on the Ball Forum.
You make me want to check out the Boa forum a little more often. My reptile adiction will only get worse!
I can already feel my wallet getting lighter....
Thanks a lot. LOL
Take care. Your friend,
Harlin WALL - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

How about this for a nice example.....

Rich-OldSkool Creations

Very nice Spider!

Hello, Whatever the prices were for a 06', you will be able to purchase a 07' for less money. Take care. Andrew

All this talk of negativity...I feel like this is the most positive market speculation thread I've seen here.

Keep up the good work.

Anyone else have anything hatching soon?

-John

I took the dive into balls this year. I feal there has never been a better time to do it. this summer alone i plan on picking up
1.0 pied
1.0 carmel alb
1.0 alb
1.0 spider
1.0 lesser
and about 4 others

can you guess what the sticker on this list would of been 3 years ago.

i love the fact that all these high end morphs are available to the masses now.

this by far has been one of the most productive threds i have seen in bp's in a year.

Matt Fisher

Matt Fisher Reptiles

John and Fish21,
I agree this has been a GREAT thread.
Lots of different views. Great discussions.
A chance for many to come forward and speak their minds.
Fish21,
Glad to hear you are getting started in this fun world.
There's no time like the present! Welcome aboard.
Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

I was also considering getting a spider this year but will now look closely at "bumble bees" as an alternative. I think they will be very reasonable.....which will also be a factor in the 07 spider market....mike

I love my spider! Great thread. I do expect prices to fall as more spiders are hatched. How much,we will have to wait and see. I think they are an awesome looking morph, a real gem.

You need spiders to make bee,s, another reason I think prices won't fall much. I love my bumble bee too.

Dave
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