Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Earlier (see link) there was a post about some Davis Mountain animals and some question about the validity of their local.

Given what I saw in the gallery, I understand the scientism over two of the animals which looked to me like classic blairs which from what I've gather on line are not known to be represented in the wild DV populations. The first pic however didn't quite have a classic blairs look and there was one in DV gallery that it superficially looked (#1008 below).

My question is, in you guy's experience, is it possible to shift the phenotype this much via selective breeding?

Check out the first animal compared to above pic

I'd like to see the venter on those snakes. In general alterna from Jeff Davis county have very heavy black pigment on the venters.

Sure you could selectively breed any trait that you see expressed, but I had to crack up when the dude in one of the other threads suggested that the River Road alterna had been selectively bred to resemble 277's! Brilliant!

I'll go out on a limb and say in my opinion there is NO WAY those three baby snakes are 100% pure Jeff Davis county animals. They may have some Davis in them.

I think had he said

So it’s possible but you're willing to go out and say the animals in question are not. Hmmm! Not sure I get that but there it is.

I didn't bring up the RR thread because that was a bit of an extreme example. However, going off of the samples from the gallery I would say some animals from RR pose a greater resemblance to some 277 animals than they do to other RR animals!

I guess what I'm saying is that given the potential for "phenotypic drift" in captive populations(I might have just made that up)and that in most cases locals yield significant outlayers from the dominant phenotype, SPECULATING on the local of a captive-bred animal seems a futile gesture. So my next question is why bother? Wouldn't it be more to the point to tell/remind us newbes what you old hats need to consider an animal locality stock. I mean to the point Joe if I got a locality pair from you but down the road I couldn't recall who I got them from they would become generic right? We could speculate all day and it wouldn't matter one bit.

>>I guess what I'm saying is that given the potential for "phenotypic drift" in captive populations(I might have just made that up)and that in most cases locals yield significant outlayers from the dominant phenotype,

Tony,
The thing is that those animals in the photos "do not" represent "normal" phenotypical drift from Jeff Davis, period.

Guessing the local is futile, but it is a might bit easier to guess where they are NOT from! I was very careful to preface my comments with "In my opinion", which translates to no more than an educated guess (IMO an accurate guess).

SPECULATING on the local of a captive-bred animal seems a futile gesture. So my next question is why bother? Wouldn't it be more to the point to tell/remind us newbes what you old hats need to consider an animal locality stock. I mean to the point Joe if I got a locality pair from you but down the road I couldn't recall who I got them from they would become generic right? We could speculate all day and it wouldn't matter one bit.

Tony,
Precisely. If you don't know where it is from, don't guess when labeling them! There is no harm in guessing for fun, just like JJ's Guadalacazar mex mex. You might guess it's mex mex or thayeri, or that the thayeri it is most closely related to will soon be split from the "leonis" thayeri. In the end it doesn't really matter, right? It's still a cool snake no matter what it is!

I should have added....

If you sell "locality" alterna it is your responsibility to KNOW without a doubt that your animals are indeed true. That means you need to do a little research to prove them.

If that's too much of a pain then no big deal.

Here's another similar example. You spend time on the mexicana forum, what happens over there when someone posts a hybrid and calls it thayeri? Exactly the same thing that happens over here when someone posts a 277 and calls it a River Road!

In most cases you can't guess for certain that the hybrid posted is 50% alterna and 50% ruthveni, but you can tell just by looking at it something isn't right! You don't know "what" it is, but you know what it isn't! Exact same scenario over here.

I can't tell you what was put together to get those three hatchlings, but I KNOW it wasn't any animal from the Observatory, Limpia Canyon, or the Boy Scout Road.

What I do is if i buy aniamls that i am not VERY sure are the local that i was told I will sell the hatchlings as generics.. But, if i get a known locality animal from a breeder that i trust then i will only breed those animals together and I sell the offspring as locality specific animals.

Like this 100% PURE W/C River Road Female...
(JOKE OF COURSE!!!)

I'm not intending to ruffle any feathers here Joe but you said the level of phenotypic drift was possible. So is it or isn’t it? This is central to the point because if it is the difference really can’t be enough for you to “just know" that animals from JD County didn't go into the makings of those neonates and speculating to the contrary is not just fun its damaging!

Again as an example Joe say I got a pair of different somewhat blairi looking Xmas Mountain animals from you (kind of like the one from Troy H. below but a little more so). Couple of years pass I breed them and produce two that have a more typical black ground color, two that look almost like the parents and two that are even more blairi looking (which is an outcome I think quite plausible). I label them all as Xmas Mountain stock, a kid pics up the blairi looking ones because I've priced them a little lower. All stoked, the kid takes them home, snaps some pics, posts them here and you respond, "they don't look like any Xmas Mountain Alterna I've seem." Now the kid thinks I'm a liar, will likely never buy from or associate with me again. Worse, he may tell many other people that I can't be trusted which impacts how I react with others here on the forums and in the field, but that’s OK because you and the others who piled on had your fun!

For me the rub really comes to this, where does locality end and the effects of selective breeding take over if captive produced offspring can stop resembling the original local? I appreciate locality animals but the standard of buying from people other people trust just doesn’t cut it.

Ok Tony,
Here's my rub. It should be real easy for him to say "they are Johnson line Black Gap" or "Ross Line Davis via Vermilya".

If he can't prove origin, then what is there to argue about?
I'm calling him out right now. Who bred those animals and where did they originate from? Give me a better locality than "Davis Mountains". Prove them or call them generic. Easy as pie. To date he has no accountability. That is what the Rec. Locality Breeder's page is about, accountability with regard to locality.

As one of the old timers who initiated the project I take a personal interest in it.

I beginning to think you bred the snakes, because I think your feathers are ruffled!

No I didn't breed the snakes in question I was just using them as an example to ask a question. And my feathers aren’t ruffled. I’m looking for unusual locality alterna, knowing how much drift is possible is important information.

Also, from what I've seen, nice looking locality alterna sell for a premium over nice looking generics. As my preferences tend towards the rare and unusual I might value an atypical xmas mountain over a typical RR animal that looks nearly the same! Correct me if I’m wrong but if I'm going to have to pay a premium for that distinction I don't think its right to have to be on constant guard because others feel so free to call down stock they think is atypical.

That said, I'm not saying what was said about the “Davis Mountain” animals was wrong! Frankly I’ve been looking into alterna locals for a week so my experience is what, nil? Still, I just think there is a less alienating way to express concerns when a newbie posts animals with a locality tag you question.

>>> I just think there is a less alienating way to express concerns when a newbie posts animals with a locality tag you question.

Okie Dokie. I do agree with this. I usually do not jump right on the occasional new poster who offers up photos of animals. In this case we had two consecutive or nearly consecutive posters offer up some junk and I joined in after a little discussion with my opinion.

And as for your other points I also agree that (at least in my eyes) an animal with tight and traceable locality data would be worth more. This is subjective, and even though we value the data it is clear that we are the minority when it comes to trade in Gray-bands as a whole. There are far more out there liable to lose track or not care about locality in the first place.

I think you are doing the right thing by doing your research and asking questions, and I'm also happy you are looking for locality animals. Not that it matters one way or another in the grand scheme of things, but it makes me happy.

When you settle on a locality ask for references here. We can usually point you to the right place(s) to get what you want. From your other posts I think you're definately looking for Brewster or Presidio county animals, and maybe Alpine or Ft Davis.

>>> I just think there is a less alienating way to express concerns when a newbie posts animals with a locality tag you question.

But if you read my article or post about 7 down from this one I made my statement on this subject.

Now... One thing that helps your "Street Cred" or Credibility is to go out and see the landscape yourself. I know it isn't always possible but when others see you out in the area and see the effort and so forth it lets others know you are serious about your animals. It means you are dedicating time to look for whatever locality. It also isnt' cheap. It is much more expensive than buying them. You meet a lot of the folks on this forum, discuss stories, share some meals and then before you know it...You are one of the folks with 10 years under your belt and addicted like the rest of us!

Example... Lance and I see several Herpers out west every year. We know they didn't bring Alterna with them. And if they get lucky and catch one, most likely we know where it is from. Later on, on the classifieds if we see animals from them with this locality, we know it is genuine. This isn't a requirement, just an explanation as to why we trust other hunters...

Best Wishes and I hope you find some great alterna to start out with.

Steven Owens

After a short look around I think you're right on the local I might settle on. RRs might be common but from what I see they have the greatest potential to produce some unique light blue-grey offspring.

BTW I appriciate you sticking with me on this thread. I know I can be frustrating when I'm looking for something specific or trying to make some inane point!

"Still, I just think there is a less alienating way to express concerns when a newbie posts animals with a locality tag you question"

I would sort of agree with you on this.. I for one lurked on this board for about a year before I started posting.

And, I know that people are scared off by the overall attitude/brutal honesty of some of the members of this forum regarding locality.. Which is unfortunate because if people would take a moment to consider just how much cumulitive locality & husbandry experience there is to be shared here it is well worth dealing with the other stuff.

Also, when thinking about this topic you have to ask yourself why, out of the literally dozens of other kings/milksnakes out there why have ONLY the gray banded kings been segregated from the others???

~ Mike Russo

>>Also, when thinking about this topic you have to ask yourself why, out of the literally dozens of other kings/milksnakes out there why have ONLY the gray banded kings been segregated from the others???

Because out of the Gray-Banded Kingsnake forum, Kingsnake.com was born. This forum was the both the foundation and inspiration for Kingsnake.com, and then Pethobbyist.com.

>>Also, when thinking about this topic you have to ask yourself why, out of the literally dozens of other kings/milksnakes out there why have ONLY the gray banded kings been segregated from the others???
>>
>>~ Mike Russo

Because we're special. LOL

-----
Steve W.

Most people heavily into a locality will have some number of wild caught animals in their breeding stock at any time. And there is accepted variation, but every now an then something is not not right in the captive trade.

You may have an animal from stock on Juno Road near the Devils River. Somebody not versed in the locality lingo will get it mixed up in name with River Road at some point when they change hands and then all the posting gets started.

Those three Davis animals, None of them were typical. But as you went from top to bottom it was like Maybe, Don't think so, and then no way.

As far as reputations being trashed, if you establish yourself as a diligent person who does his homework on any locality you choose to work with there is nothing to worry about. Most breeders will keep a photo record of their breeding stock and offspring. And as a general rule, now that everybody has digital instead of prints you can have a photo family tree of any animals you are working with back to the wild caught stock in many cases.

This is another "what if" scenario to me anyway. Just a simulation, not a real crisis.

Hold on Tony, isn't trust what is all about? The kid who theoretically buys said snakes from you is trusting you to represent! The people on the alterna breeding page have proved their animals with the criteria set forth. I would have no problem buying from any of them and actually long for the day to be added to the page by personally capturing my own locality animals to breed for sale. If that doesn't happen you can bet I would only buy from people I trust, and spending time on here year after year and actually meeting some of these folks in the field have furthered my trust in them. Relax, spend some time out west and you might have a different perspective! We don't spend thousands of dollars traveling there to sell a few snakes. Keeping some from each locality that you have personally visited seems like taking a little piece of west Texas home with you, and they are all very striking animals, some more so than others. If you spend enough time out there and see enough animals as most of the alterna page breeders have, you get to be an "expert"! I am still logging miles to become an amateur! Have a margarita and enjoy life, get an alterna the hard way yourself and maybe you too would have the experience to "make the call". If you are an indoor hobbyist, then you will have to take someones' word!
Todd Hughes

I would agree with that Tony. I think most die-hards have friends they know well and that's is who they would buy from. If someone posted a pic of a snake that looked like what they claimed it to be most of those die hards would not publicly question the snake. They would simply say nice snake but maybe not buy from that person simply because they have closer friends they can buy from. As far as making a public comment quetioning the validity they would probably only speak up if the appearance of the animal was highly suspect.

If it walks like a Duck
Quacks like a Duck
And looks like Duck
Then it must be a Duck

Very subjective, but those were not ducks

You spend some time around something (Not just Alterna) and you get to know a lot about it. Not just things that you can sit down and explain either. Most people would say you develop a feel for it, or an instinct. But whatever it is, it is very seldom wrong.

Lance

Lance I didn't say there were or were not I only asked if that level of "drift" were possible via selective breeding. If it is then I personaly would would increasingly question my feel/instinct the further we got from actual w/c specimens.

I am not sure anybody knows what the extreme level of drift that can be achieved for any alterna locality by line breeding out all other characteristics to create an atypical phenotype. The truth is to get that as an answer somebody would have to dedicate years to doing it. I know the ball python and corn snake crowd have done this to varying degrees, but it is completely contrary to the effort of locality breeding an animal. And as far as I know nobody in the alterna community has done this.

And quite frankly once somebody has made an effort to drift away from what the locality produces on its own, then they are in some ways not producing locality animals any more. Instead they are producing designer animals with cute names like “Candy Cane” “Latte” “Creamsicle” or “Snow”.

So the more you favor a selective drift into anything atypical, the less you produce a true locality animal in my opinion.

I know nobody has answered your question, but that is because it is total “what if” scenario. This is like chasing your own tail to me...

Lance