”But how do you know how fast they grow in the wild? Have you(or a scientist) watched one every day until maturity? Reptiles grow according to their conditions, dont they?”
Yes, I think that is ET’s point- they may grow according to conditions and if the conditions are excessive from a diet standpoint, the growth rate could be much faster than that of nature. While I highly doubt that many people have had the opportunity to watch a uromastyx every single day of its life in nature to validate the exact growth rate, several people who work with this genus in their natural habitat have commented on the growth rate in captivity being much faster than that of nature. Diet is speculated to be a large part of this equation.
”What are we to tell them to grow at a certain speed? Shouldnt they be the thing that knows themself the best?”
Sort of like the overweight people here in the U.S who eat way too many refined foods, sugars, and fatty foods know what is best? How bad do you think the issue would be if every adult in the U.S were confined to a small space and their diet were filled with these items? There is evidence of poor choice feeding among just about every animal even extremes with dogs ingesting anti-freeze or tortoises ingesting large rocks. What is knowing best- our animals saying “No thank you” when tossed a couple limited choices in a 30x12 enclosure?
Although both may play a role- I think that quality of food has more to do with excessive growth rates than the quantity of food. Even good items (for us) could pose problems for other animals. I would not feed my parrot the same items I feed my dog nor would I feed my reptile the same items I place at my table. If we know that a uromastyx diet consists primarily of grasses, shrubs, weeds, and other greens with a smaller percentage of blooms and legumes, why do we feel the need to load the diet down with a lower fiber/ high carb (including sugar) diet of romaine, fruits, frozen carrot, corn, peas, and lima beans and then throw in a moderate or high percentage of animal protein as well? I suggest a little reading on herbivores and the balance that NDF and ADF play in digestion/proper nutrition. For those that might be interested- here is a photo of some dried feces from a wild caught uromastyx shortly after arrival:
While we would be hard pressed to balance this sort of high roughage/fiber with captive conditions (would be a recipe for disaster for most), it is my opinion that many of us are not remotely close with the diet we feed- especially if the diet consists of frozen veggies, a little romaine, supplements, and some insects.
” Reptile husbandry and our understanding is not even close to fully comprehending what is right and what is wrong. I guess there is no way of telling. Its all opinion at the momment.”
Yes, but husbandry should be based on common sense and reasoning. You can look around you for articles that show the negative impact that excessive growth rates and feeding excessive calories have had on a variety of animals. The Merck Veterinarian Manual generically states that a slow growth rate is preferable to a fast growth rate. Douglas Mader writes about nutrition vs. metabolism for reptiles and includes some medical issues that can arise from the rapid growth that takes place from excessive calorie intake. Almost every veterinarian book (including reptile) will suggest that the diet mimic (as close as possible) the diet in nature. There are many examples and studies, look around.
This is not a simple subject as there are a number of issues involved with diet. Growth rate, obesity, nutrition absorption, nutritional balance...ECT. Unfortunately, many health issues may not arise until years into the adverse practice. I can feed my herbivores a diet with a 20% fat content and they might do just fine for several years. This does not mean that I have them in ideal conditions or that major health issues will not arise down the road. Studies show that my herbivore will likely have some major issues down the road- I do not need to actually feed the diet and see the illness to know that it is not a prudent practice. Many of the uromastyx I see on faulty diets tend to be rather bulky and lumpy. I am not certain how else to describe it. If the animal is laying flat and looks gravid, I would say there are some dietary issues involved.
”How can you say that faster growth will have an affect on the health of the reptile? All faster growth has to do with is how much GOOD things the reptile can get a hold of.”
Sort of like the high fat, sugar, protein, carb diet scenario I gave above for many Americans? The term ‘good’ is a little subjective in this situation. As I have already pointed out- what might be good for you and me (carrots, corn, lima beans, animal protein), might not be good for the digestive system of a desert herbivore. Yes, certain 'good' things such as proper enclosure, temperature, lighting, and diet will all have an impact on the growth rate. This does not mean that taking one of these items (in this case diet) and making it excessive to increase the growth rate WELL above the norm is a 'good' thing. In my book, the good turned from a positive to a negative when it went well outside the boundaries of the diet the animal would typically consume in nature. Can we order the exact plants found in a uromastyx natural habitat-no. But we certainly can use common sense and rationality to mimic similarities such as greens rather than high sugar carrots, peas, and corn, and some natural grasses and other sources of fiber.
There is no doubt that captive conditions will typically increase the growth rate from that of nature. After all, we confine these animals to a relatively small space limiting normal daily activity and then establish a consistent pattern of feeding. In nature, the animal is much more active and food sources vary in availability and quality. I would be willing to bet that the animal spends much more time near its preferred optimal temperature as well. Increasing the growth rate a small percentage by limiting activity and providing a consistent food source is not as alarming to me as intentionally increasing the growth rate dramatically by limiting activity (confinement) and feeding a consistent food source that is loaded (well above that found in nature) with calories from sugars, starches, protein, and animal protein. While I find it alarming that many people dismiss the ‘type’ of food being fed including things like fiber, it almost seems that most people are oblivious to concepts such as Standard Metabolic Rate (SMR). Calories differ (fat, protein, carbohydrate) and are important not only from the amount of food fed, but also from the ‘type’ of food that is fed.
”At pro exotics they fed their uromastyx well, and kept them in near ideal conditions, and the reptiles happen to grow more quickly put in such good conditions.”
I remember pointing out in some of Robyn’s photos how the diet appeared rather unusual(lima beans, carrots, corn, insects). No doubt that a diet like this will likely increase the growth rate of many living organisms, I just do not see evidence of this diet being near that found in nature and this sort of diet is exactly what I am referring to above as being excessive for a desert herbivore. Again, look into the natural diet of these animals, the role NDF and ADF play in the digestive process of herbivores, the estimated SMR of the animals we are confining, and the nutritional makeup of the plants/weeds found in nature vs. those we feed (including things like nutrition density). ‘Good and/or ideal conditions’ is simply your opinion -not necessarily the opinion of everyone on this forum.
”The whole idea that they will be unhealthy if they grow quickly is absurd, and I have yet to see any evidence at all that it has any relevance. So far I've only seen it tossed into conversations by people that are afraid of change.”
Are you expecting to see it with uromastyx or will evidence in other animals do? I suggest some research on the topic. I gave you a couple of references above but there are many others that can be found by searching. Not only has a reduced food intake shown to increase longevity in a variety of animals, the ‘type’ of diet typically will come into play. While a diet high in lima beans, carrots, corn, and insects might be fine for some animals, it does not appear from evidence (that of nature) to be consistent with the diet of a uromastyx.
”Not trying to be mean, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. What's happening right now with uromastyx is what happened before with monitors (when they realized they weren't keeping them correctly and a few good people decided to change that). “
No, this is not the same thing.
’I think that the results pro exotics ended up with are evidence that the same is true for uromastyx. Just my opinion on the matter. It seems like they have way more evidence to prove their success than anyone else has to disprove it.’
Robyn has yet to publish any credible data on his uromastyx. I inquired once about the condition of the original ornates he started with and was informed that one or more had been sold (think from aggression) but never received any other details. When I inquired as to how many eggs were laid versus how many hatched I was informed that the eggs were not counted as they did not want to disturb the burrows. I would like to see data and health records on the entire group of ornates that Robyn began his project with including growth rate, all health issues including those from aggression, current weight and size, transit times, number of clutches, percentage of successful hatchings, blood work to show the function of the kidneys and liver of the animals on this diet, fecal scoring....
Let’s say that Robyn’s ornates are shown to have an average life expectancy of six years while my ornate life expectancy ends up being 12 years, I do not think we can chalk that up to a successful endeavor for PE. Let’s say 40% of Robyn’s ornates end up with gout within four years, I would not consider PE’s care a success. Considering that many inferior practices may take years before we realize there is an issue with the practice, I would like to see current and ongoing data on animals keep under these atypical conditions before jumping on the bandwagon and/or promoting it to others. 'Real' scientific data- not just that some of the animals are alive three years later and attempted to reproduce at 12 or 18 months of age. These two things mean nothing to me other than the animal is still alive and it attempted to reproduce. Although I am not a betting person, I would be willing to place a sizable bet that the lifespan of my ornates will be much greater than those that had an excessively fast growth rate and were sexually mature at 12 or 18 months. Understand that I am not against Robyn’s dirt substrate, I just think that the diet he feeds played more of a role in the excessively fast growth rate than the dirt substrate which he claimed was responsible for the significant growth he was seeing. As you can see- I am not a big fan of this type of diet or of excessively fast growth rates.
’Of course everyone is free to keep their animals as they wish, but I think it's important that we keep an open mind.’
Speaking of open mind. You comment several times on the success of PE’s care and the ideal conditions- how many times have you visited Pro Exotic’s ornates since this experiment was started three years ago? Can you tell me some facts on the health of the animals such as some of the details I listed above? How is the hatch rate which might give some indication of the health of the females depositing eggs? Did you see any indication of tophi deposits on radiograph which could signify gout from animal protein he feeds? How did the complete blood panel on these animals look? What values were you comparing to? You see Ryan, an open mind works both ways.
