Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was curios as to know monitor (and other large lizard) owners thoughts and opinions on free roaming and how many of you allow your lizard(s) to roam free. Are for or against free roam and why?

I'm asking this because I'm strongly considering purchasing a baby bt or wt monitor within the next month or so. & I know that they get very big and they grow very fast (if cared for properly). I currently have 2yr old sav (& no, I do not plan on putting them together) and I'm very prepared to accomodate a bt or wt (or another large/larger lizard). I allow my sav to roam freely fairly occasionally (a few hours a day, twice a week) but I wouldnt label her as free roaming.
Thoughts, Opinions, Experience, please....

Thanks in advance.

in my monitor experience (which is great- in my opinion) its a bit up to the monitor- I've had a few that were puppy dog tame in a large (room size enclosure) and went wild when they got out of thier cages to "free roam" for a few hours- climbing bookshelves, the fridge- getting in the fridge on more than one occasion, getting behind the tv and washer/dryer- then on the flip side- i've had some (moslty savannahs) that will gladly lay on the couch or floor by your feet- i think its up to the monitor- not necessarily the species- the individual animal. our monitors do come out for 'play time' but i always- always make sure i have a cage they can (and do) go in. I've had a few that think they're going to eat my dogs (german shepherds- not going to get eaten) the cat gets locked up and depending on the monitor- dogs get kicked outside.
anyway- remember the sharp claws that can and will rip a hole in the couch- remember that they can get 25 lbs and will be a pain in the you know what to retreive from behind the fridge (yha i know- i'll watch them every second- they're fast and what if you need to use the bathroom?) anyway- i think its up to the owner and the monitor as to being 'free roam' or not.
Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Thanks for the reply & the advice. You definetley bought up some points that I hadnt considered....

What you are forgetting, is that the normal conditions within the average household are in no way condusive to the physiological and environmental needs of a monitor (or most other reptiles for that matter). The conditions which we define 'comfortable', and therefore choose to live within are not the same for monitors.

If you search back through the archives of various online fora, or hang around varanid keepers for long enough, you will se a strong trend emerge from those who give their animals free roam of a house, or bedroom. These animals usually end up living short lives, and die after only a few years. I am willing to bet that this trend is even more profound in Green Iguana keepers who offer the same.

Living under constant improper environmental conditions takes its toll on a monitor. Considering that ectotherms are much better at hiding chronic illness or deficiency than mammals or birds, where the dying process can be drawn out over weeks, months, or even years, the environmental conditions being offered by these keepers is rarely, if ever questioned at the time of the animal's premature death ("He had been living just fine with free roam of the house for several months/years", etc.).

Although it is difficult to ethically limit or restrict the amount of space provided to a captive, I think that limiting space, ie. utilizing enclosures, is more supportive of the animal's physiological needs than offering them a large area which is not supportive of the animal's physiological needs and requirements. Such factors are more important to a monitor than space.

Unless you set your house up like a large monitor cage. Which includes high temps, high humidity, lots of substrate for burrows, etc.

Houses are too dry, cool/cold, and offer little of what are considered normal monitor needs.

Of course its not going to drop them dead(could happen) but its not any good for them, in fact, its most likely more detrimental to them then of value. Of course I understand, it makes you feel good to allow the inmate out. But please consider, monitors are not DUMB, they still know where out is, its outside, not in a house. Cheers

Once one of my niles lunged otu of it's cage as soon as I opened the door. It hit the ground running, into the kitchen around the corner through the dining roon around another corner and strait down the hall to the front door. Now it could have gone a dozen different ways but it took the shortest route strait to the door without even stopping to sniff the air. It seemed as if that lizard knew exactly what it was going to do when the cage door opened. Do you think it knew where outside was?

Roger

my ornate KNOWS when it's time to "come in" from being outside and re-enters her "cage" on her own. For the past three days, we have taken her outside and placed her in the large glass enclosure (which blocks any wind and allows only sunlight) and then when the end of the day comes, around 5 p.m., we take her out of the enclosure, place her on the ground, and she slowly walks, on her own, to the house (at least 50'), up the stoop, through the back door, hangs a right, and goes directly into her open-door cage.

Now explain that one to me?

Cheers!
NessiesMom

Here's a pic of the outdoor enclosure with the Argus in it.

>>my ornate KNOWS when it's time to "come in" from being outside and re-enters her "cage" on her own. For the past three days, we have taken her outside and placed her in the large glass enclosure (which blocks any wind and allows only sunlight) and then when the end of the day comes, around 5 p.m., we take her out of the enclosure, place her on the ground, and she slowly walks, on her own, to the house (at least 50'), up the stoop, through the back door, hangs a right, and goes directly into her open-door cage.
>>
>>Now explain that one to me?
>>
>>Cheers!
>>NessiesMom
>>
>>Here's a pic of the outdoor enclosure with the Argus in it.
>>

I am obviously not FR but gotta ask......Where do you live and how warm is it out? Is there any shelter/cover (visually as much as from the wind) or water or food offered outside....or is all that inside? Has the lizard done this all it's life or is it a new thing? So maybe it is stressed to peices and really would like to go back to familiar places.
I have a friend who had a roughneck (when they were legal here) and let it sit on the front stoop. It never went far....but then we are talking upstate NY. Even in the mid summer peak temps don't really equate to monitor environment. I know it is too cold for me most of the time.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Hi Nessiesmom, there is nothing to explain. Your monitor goes in and out. I have many that do the same thing. They march outside in the mourning and back in, in the late afternoon.

but that is not what we are talking about. Aren't we talking about monitors running loose in a house. There is nothing in a house thats useful, Other then a monitor cage. Or something like a monitor cage.

Whats missing is, a monitor cage IS SUPPOSE to offer and meet the needs of the monitor it houses. If it does not, its not a cage, its a box.

I know you have had monitors for a long time. You understand things others do not. You allow your monitors to do things others do not. Its these folks that worry me, not you. They do not understand what a monitor needs. So they think walking around a house is good. In 99% of the time, its not only not benefitual, but its actually harmful.

Even in your case. I loved the freedom you gave your monitors, but there was a tradeoff. THat trade off was a lowered immune system. Where you live is not hot enough for large lizards, if it was, they would be living there. Just a thought. Cheers

Hi FR, it's always good to hear from you, in response to..."Aren't we talking about monitors running loose in a house.".... I never let one "loose" in my house if it was under 4 ft. long, for starters because I know it would be long gone in hiding for days, and/or weeks, on end. When they are 4 ft. or longer, they can't "run" as fast as their smaller size and not with all that extra girth can they get behind those tight spaces, nor do they have the same agility to climb up drapes and furniture. I found an old posting, http://www.kingsnake.com/forum/monitor//messages/36408.html
that answers the question: How do you guys house those large monitors? It's dated 6/8/2000, back when Nessie was still around and before the clutch of eggs was laid.

In the time we shared our home with Nessie, he only walked around through the house, on the average, maybe 5% or less, of his daily life. Most of the time, say 95%, was spent outside (by way of the doggie door) and/or under the bed sleeping. The thing was, I never wanted to return Nessie to the same wired-cage environment we saved him from. Period. That was it. No cage for this gorgeous creature who never did a thing to anybody. Nessie was the ONLY one of all our monitors that had free roam. The others were in their own enclosures, mainly for their own safety, since I didn't want to chance a monitor wrestling match on my diningroom floor...if you know what I mean, LOL. Now that we are living in an eastern state with colder conditions, and no sliding glass door in our bedroom, this ornate, that we have left from our Nov. 2000 clutch, will not be allowed free roam, only supervised (one of us is suppose to be observing) roam, and then returned for the night into her closed and locked enclosure.
Cheers back to ya,
Nessie's Mom

Here are pics of Nessie returning to her enclosure at the end of the day (Mar. 10 and 11, 2007).

Nessie, my ornate monitor

Those pics are great. Its just like mine. They give you this look of saddness. You know, Oh well back to the house(at least its warm. Thats why I said "march". Its very much a march type of behavior.

Again to the point. You knew what was dangerous and not dangerous. Most don't. In fact, most don't have a clue. They simply think out is good. Its not, out is bad. Unless you supply what is needed by the monitor.

What is sad and you understand its very sad, is most do not give monitors what they need, indoors or outdoors or loose in the house. Its this thought that keeps me from saying to much.

A simple comparison is, all the time in spend with wild monitors, I never found one IN a house(abandoned) I found snakes, geckos(millions) skinks, but never a monitor. I did photograph a lacie with its head sticking out of a loose piece of tin roofing. It would stick its head out every mourning, warm up, then either go back or venture around. Consider, these were houses in the monitors natural habitat. I have also seen them under houses as well, burrows under the foundation. But they do not find inside houses of any use. I will look for that pic if your interested. Cheers

House roaming is not such a good idea, but what about an enclosure large enough to allow for "free roaming"- Now that would be home if I were a lizard...

I own a 3.5 foot sav. I used to let him free roam in the house when he was smaller, now if he does he goes under things and it is way too difficult to get him out. He soaks in the bath tub once a week. He takes laps around the bathroom and climbs in and out of the tub. In the Summer I take him out on a leash. I will let him cruise around the house but only when I am watching him so he doesn't get stuck.

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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
32 rats
50 mice
54 chickens
2 beardies
1 black rat snake
~100 hissers
1 giant milipede

The horror stories of 'free roaming' and 'sudden mysterious death' are anecdotes with no records of diet or other conditions, no explanation of cause & effect, etc., designed to make you feel guilty for treating your animal like a pet! There is no data to show that longevity varies inversely with the ability to roam extensively.
The most common cause of death, afaik, is fatty liver disease. There is no hint of excessive liberty causing of that or any other ailment. As long as the animal has access to what it needs to be healthy, it will be able to sit on a couch with no mortal danger.

It does not qualify as 'natural conditions' to keep a sav restricted in a tank. Wild means left alone to struggle and often die; to roam free, confront predators and disease, in lean times and fat, dry times and wet- as nature decrees.
As a captive, these threats are absent; life is regular, stress is low, meals and drink and heat and moisture are handy any time of day. These animals will never dance among the stemware as a cat can- they'll clear the decks- but their lack of poise in some areas is no reason to deprive them of an enriched environment interacting with the human companions they will be spending their lives with. Whatever they practice is what they get good at. Whatever they get a chance to learn, they learn.

Mine free roam but don't have a moment without a person in constant attendance. They do eye contact and gaze at faces. They climb on us and rub their chins on us. They have their favorite places to nuzzle in on us. They only eat from the hand.
They ask for food when they want it. They inform us when they want a bath. They get out of bed when they need to poo. Their habits make it easy for us to get along harmoniously.
Tame isn't the right word for them. Cuddly is the right word. Proof? http://www.youtube.com/VaranusTraining note how they always come to me.

Danceswithsavs,

Since it is possible that some of the participants of this forum have not observed your behavior on other herp fora, nor do they know about your background in keeping monitor lizards, perhaps you can answer to us all, what experience do you have with maintaining monitors for any extended period of time? What experience do you have, to be able to support your claim that monitors which are left to free-range the home are not at a physiological/environmental disadvantage, nor will it result in a decreased lifespan?

You have only kept your two V. exanthematicus for six months!

I see that it's time to junk up yet another varanid forum with your senselessness, eh Danceswithsavs?? Do you really think that you will receive the support here on this forum for your abusive 'training protocols', which you were seeking on the 9 or 10 other reptile fora you have already been permanently banned from?

If you wish to claim that free roaming adversely affects the lifespan of a monitor- any particular one or any variety in general- then it us up to you to present the evidence that substantiates your claim. Has this been done?

The laws of logic require you to prove your claim in the first place. Nobody is required to refute something for which there is no evidence.
Fallacious appeals to authority and fallacious introduction of irrelevancies are not arguments for your case.

So, how does the research show the claim deserves more credit than any other 'wifestail'?

As I have said already, there is an undeniable correlation between the two (free-ranging monitors and premature deaths). If you were to peruse through the past several years worth of posts on this and various other varanid fora, you will see that this trend is clear as day. Interestingly, you will also see that there is a zero correlation between animals living long lives and successfully reproducing under the conditions you claim to be sufficient.

On your side of the argument however, you are boldly stating that such a practice does not result in premature deaths or compromised health, based on your success of keeping your monitors alive for six months? Do you not see the problem with this?

I suggest that for now you disappear (of course feel free to read posts on the various fora), and come back in 4 or 5 years to report your findings based on your own experience. By then, it is likely that the effects of living under such impoverished conditions will have taken their toll on your monitors. But for now, you are in no place to speak on the matter as you lack zero experience with what you are preaching.

Do you honestly think we want to hear more about your "breakthrough" on training lizards?

Quote: "As long as the animal has access to what it needs to be healthy, it will be able to sit on a couch with no mortal danger."

Yes, this is completely correct. But it doesn't have access to what it needs. What it needs is temperature gradients, humidity gradients, food, and deep, deep, deep dirt, not kissing and cuddling by dumb people. So, unless your house is covered in a couple feet of dirt, and goes from the 60's or 70's up to the high 90's (your house would deteriorate away in these conditions, so you probably don't), the above quote is really completely false.

And even if those claims to "make you feel guilty about keeping your lizard like a pet" didn't include a record of diet, most of them die from effects of dehydration or from being too cold. My ackies have become dehydrated just from having a little too much excessive ventilation on a fish tank filled with moist soil. A house is what, 5-15% humidity? I can't imagine the effects that has on a lizard used to spending a buttload of time in burrows of at least 40-50% humidity, often higher.

But there is, according to you, no proof of adverse effects from these conditions. So, since your animals have been in them for 6 months and are still alive, it should be fine, right? Even though other animals have perished in free-roaming conditions?

Hmmmmmmm...

Cheers,
Ryan

Oh, and sorry to the webmaster/admin if there are any of what seem to be assaults at danceswithsavs (if there are, they weren't completely intentional). Even if there are, I beg of you not to delete my post as you did on her last visit.
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There are three kinds of people in this world: people who can count and people who can't.

dances quote;
"don't have a moment without a person in constant attendance."

except for when you're drowning them in your bathtub. after all you don't want the lizards to know it was you that's torturing them.

try telling your whole story, I'm sure it will entertain those with a morbid fascination.

Those3 videos have got to be some of the most delusional things I've ever seen related to monitors.

And what is brekky???

First, on one video it appears you have a heating blanket on you to lure them to you.

In another, vid of "brekky", whatever that is, If that were one of my monitors, there would be no hesitation at all to grab that mouse out of your hands. First he looks like he's given up hope, just by the look on it, then it obviously was very hungry, smelled the mouse and came. I wouldn't concider that training at all, but instilling in the monitor that you = food. It's just relating you to food, or your hand to food. It just wants to eat and gets very narrow minded when it comes to that.

Try this. Place a basking light somewhere in the room away from you totally, set the temps up so they are adaquate basking temps, like 120-140. Place a couple mice under it, and you hold a couple mice, without a heating blanket, and see where they wonder to. I would bet 9 times out of 10 they go to the basking light, eat the mice, then stay under the light.

In another, the kisses video, which by the way, I mean, come on, that's just a joke. If I were to sit there with mice to attract the monitors, and started flapping my lips and blowing at them, they would also come to my mouth and investigate. Then probably bite me like it did to you. In a couple of years, please, if they are alive, take another vid of that now 4 ' savannah "kissing" you. I can bet it will be a bit different as it will have gotten sooo much faster reactions. Seriously, please be careful. I would't want to see anyone get mauled in the face by any monitor no matter how dumb they are.

See, monitors can seem to have an unbelievable sense of smell. I can be in a completely different room with mice, and my Salvadori smells them almost immediatly and I can hear it jumping at the doors of it's enclosure.

I didn't catch the bathing video if there is one, but why would you need to bathe them? If your enclosure, if you have one for them, provides adaquate humidity, there would be no need at all. Even then, instead of forcing them into the water, place a large water container in it so they can use it as they wish, not as you wish. If your enclosure it adaquate, I can guarantee they won't use it for anything but to deficate in or drink from. You won't catch them just hanging out in there if there isn't a reason or need to, and with a proper enclosure, there is no need to. If they "know it's bath time", I would say what they really know, is they are dehydrated and starting to die, so they seek out whatever source of moisture they can, and again, since I can bet your enclosure doesn't provide that, they again relate you to almost survival if nothing else. Kinda like, hey, I'm getting dehydrated, and since where I live doesn't provide that, I need to go to the next option.

I've been on here for years, and kept monitors for years, and I've seen many, many people try the things you are trying, and almost, if not all no longer have those monitors. Then they just disappear into the void, never to post again. I'm not talking a few, but many many keepers if they can even be called that.

To me, this forum is dedicated to monitor husbandry, and that doesnt' seem like any form of even close to monitor husbandry. More like monitor survival and not being to make any of it's own choices, just yours and when you want them.

I think you should read up on monitors and their natural behaviors, because none of those videos show anything close to a natural behavior. Just what you want.

Sorry to be blunt, but I gotts ta tell it like it is.

-Jeff

Linked below is Danceswithsav's "Training Log".

It should be pointed out that this is the cached log, cached before danceswithsavs deleted/altered the text to hide his/her abusive techniques used to "train" the monitors, once he/she was called out on various other herp fora.

I suggest that everybody scrolls down to "Day 34 Buzzy". Here you will read about this person's torturous attempts to 'almost' drown his/her savanah in deep water, in the hopes of 'taming down' the monitor.

"Danceswithsavs' Torturous Training Log"

Reading that actually brought tears to my eyes...If I ever saw someone do that I would have to be arrested.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
32 rats
50 mice
54 chickens
2 beardies
1 black rat snake
~100 hissers
1 giant milipede

To the authorities if noone else will. But then again if enough others do maybe this person will be dealt with. After all the web server keeps copies of deleted pages and text for future references and evidence.

Thank you to everyone that replied to my original question/inquiry. Your responses via experience & knowledge has definetely helped influence my views on free roaming.

PS I never thought would have turned into what it is now. Wow......