Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I visited a garden show in Harrisburg this past week and was informed in a discusssion about reptiles with the by a member of the PFBC that I now needed permits for keeping native reptiles in the state of PA now, and that many species that you used to be able to keep can no longer be kept in the state at all, and that no species native to the state can be bred at all (we all kinda knew that last bit). She also said she "hopes the laws concerning reptiles and amphibians get a whole lot tougher on the people"

Anyway...As information can be confusing between one person talking permits, regulations and laws and another (you'd swear they all have different booxs with different regs, just to make things confusing) I was cautious to take it for word that no longer could species like eastern hognose snakes or box turtles be kept, but upon coming home and checking online, it appears to be the case -

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/fishpub/summary/repamp.html

If you are or were keeping any of these animals -

Snakes - Eastern Hognose Snake, Eastern Ribbon Snake, Eastern Worm Snake, Mountain Earth Snake, Queen Snake, Shorthead Garter Snake, Smooth Earth Snake, Smooth Green Snake

Salamanders - Eastern Hellbender, Four-toed Salamander, Jefferson Salamander, Marbled Salamander, Mudpuppy, Ravine Salamander

Lizards - Broadhead Skink, Northern Coal Skink, Northern Fence Lizard

Frogs - Northern Cricket Frog, Mountain Chorus Frog, Striped Chorus Frog Complex

Turtles - Blanding’s Turtle, Eastern Box Turtle, Spotted Turtle,
Wood Turtle

To do it legally, you of corse, need to be in compliance with the regulations before Jan 07, ("the old rules, as in a maximum of 2 specimens wild caught or captive bred per person of each non endangered native species" and you need to apply for a grandfathering permit if you wish to continue to legally keep those animals in your posession. It seems to be a one time fee of 10.00 per animal, one application per animals, and you need to submit a varierty of photos of the animals, and measurements of the animals, and such with your application. Then it needs to be sent, with the fee to the PA Fish & Boat Commission, Bureau of Law Enforcement, P.O. Box 67000, Harrisburg, PA 17106-7000. The applications all need to be submitted no later than June 30, 2007

I guess that means that residents of PA can no longer purchase these species (say box turtles, wood turtles, spotted turtles) out of state from a person who breeds them, and bring them in, even with proof of purchase, as it seems this is a one time deal ?

Anyway, this may be old news to others, but it was most certianly not to me, so I figured I would post it here -

More window-dressing laws. Rather than addressing the real problem (habitat destruction) they make laws that give the impression that they a) care about the animals and b) are doing something constructive about their decline. All these animals do is separate people from their native fauna. Separation equals lack of knowledge about the beauty and biodiversity. People only care about that which they know something about.

Typical crap seen the globe over.

Cheers
B
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
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http://www.venomdoc.com

Thanks for replying -

Yeah, It seemed strange to me that these laws get passed, and instead of say, having a "advanced poaching team" or something, and a policy on preserving habitat, it in fact prevents people from keeping these creatures, and targets only the people who care about being and staying "right" in the eyes of the law.

Unfortunetly, it seems there can be nothing done about it if you keep those species and live in PA, except comply.

>Unfortunetly, it seems there can be nothing done about it if you keep those species and live in PA, except comply.

Actually, there are two other less-than-desireable options.
1) Don't ask, don't tell
2) Move.

Now, as you've pointed out, this kind of law really hurts people who want to be law-abiding. While most jurisdictions gloss over the whole issue of habitat destruction (because it's giving way to golf courses and shopping plazas) and roadway mortality (because everyone likes to drive), they always manage to find incidental collection and illegal collection for the pet trade as the "real" threats to native species. Well, tougher laws aren't going to do much about either of those. I don't think your average 8 year-old is gonna hit the DFW website and sift through their regs before he carries home a box turtle. Most people have no idea what animals are protected or threatened in their area. Ignorance of the law is no defense, but I don't think nearly enough being done to educate the public about what's endangered or why. As for people poaching animals for the pet trade--well, that's why it's called poaching. Stiffer registration/breeding laws do nothing to curtail that behavior (unless you want to take in consideration the effect of having people with legimately registered animals unable to breed them--that part actually keeps poaching a profitable enterprise by limiting captive breeding in the areas most suitable for these animals).

As far as the moving part goes, I know that's not a real option for most people. In my case, I'm living somewhere where I can keep turtles I couldn't legally keep where I grew up, and the fact that I couldn't keep or breed them if I were to return has helped convince me I probably won't ever be going back there to live.

First of all, these are regulations you're talking about, not laws. If you want to start talking with state officials, it's important to know the terminology and apply it correctly. Regulations come down from state agencies based on the powers given to them by state law (statute). A law may be vague, giving state agencies the power to develop regulations how they see fit, or a law can be detailed, giving state agencies a rigid framework from which to build thier regulations.

This is one of the reasons that you don't see non-native animals regulated by the state in PA - right now that law doesn't give them the power to do that, it only allows them to regulate native herps.

If I were a PA resident, I'd ask my state senator and representatives for a personal, face-to-face appointment to share my thoughts on herpetoculture and native wildlife, and why it's important to me personally and to that state financially. Then I'd lead into how the PA Fish and Boat Commission is limiting personal freedoms without really helping native natural resources. Then move on to the financial loss for the state. (For one thing, I won't be moving to PA because my animals wouldn't be able to move with me - that's a loss of state income tax.)

Our state legislators and wildlife agencies need to see that we're lawful, decent citizens that care for our animals and care about conserving natural resources. The only way to do this is by meeting face to face and letting our concerns be known, as well as doing the right thing by our animals, the environment, and the community. Show examples of how other states regulate native species. Why can't PA do it if NJ, MD, and OH are able to successfully regulate provate possession AND breeding of native reptiles?

Ask your legislators why the Fish and Boat Commission is ignoring the regulations in other states that allow citizens to enjoy their hobby and property while protecting native resources. Can he or she work with the Commission to bring about a set of reasonable regulations?

If the Fish and Boat Commission won't respond to requests from legislators for a review of the regulations, then you can start considering asking your legislators to sponsor a bill that will require the Commission to create regulations that allow the possession and breeding of native reptiles and amphibians under certain requirements.

Previously it was illegal to breed any turtles in MD due to a health department regulations. One of our own asked his delegate to sponor a bill, we all testified at committee hearings, wrote in letters to our senators and delegates, and the bill passesd. Now we can breed native box turtles, wood turtles, and spotted turtles - other turtles to follow soon when new regulations are passed.

The more of you that request an appointment with your legislators, the more you're likely to be heard. But, your legislators won't know there's a problem if you don't tell them.

Katrina
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Posted by: ravenspirit at Sun Mar 11 01:31:26 2007
Thanks for replying -

Yeah, It seemed strange to me that these laws get passed, and instead of say, having a "advanced poaching team" or something, and a policy on preserving habitat, it in fact prevents people from keeping these creatures, and targets only the people who care about being and staying "right" in the eyes of the law.

Unfortunetly, it seems there can be nothing done about it if you keep those species and live in PA, except comply.

I forgot to add that there's a PA Animal Law group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PAAnimalLaw/?yguid=99835487
if you want to meet with other like-minded folk to help fight this sort of thing.

You have to join Yahoo Groups to join PA Animal Law, but that's pretty easy to do - www.groups.yahoo.com

Katrina

"Being a fool for hope is far preferable than being a cynic for reality." March Gellman

"...But you can always be both." Katrina Smith
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1.2 Eastern Muds - Fred, Ethel, Edith
0.1 Iguana - Tiffel
0.1 Bearded Dragon - Foster
Foster turtles: More than I'd like the husband to know about.

You've hit the nail on the head. They can't compete with large scale developers, so they crack down on the average herper.