Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Howdy folks. Before I begin, let me start by saying I'm not so completely ignorant on this issue that I couldn't decide for myself, but I wanted to get some input from some experienced folks. I'm currently finishing my undergrad work in Life and Earth Science Education for the Secondary Level (fancy way of saying I'm going to be a middle-high school life or earth science teacher). Having a huge love of all things reptillian - well all things living anyway - I'm planning to, administration-permitting, keep a wide array of herps and maybe other critters in my classroom. I believe they could not only make immensely beneficial ambassadors of snakes, but also living animals in the classroom - especially biology classrooms - can make great illustrations of biological concepts.

I'm definitely going to display an eastern indigo (monstrous thanks to Jeff Snodgres for his immense help with this!) to not only show off how beautiful and interesting snakes can be, but also to try to drive the conservation point home. My hope is that the kids will fall in love with the indigo, and then realize how important it is to preserve this species' habitat and that it could be wiped out completely if we don't. Ok, so that was a tangent upon which I didn't mean to expound so much.

My real question is, I'm wanting to display a range of species but want to be sure they can deal with the potential stress of 100+ kids staring at them every day. In addition to the indigo, I'd like to display something like a Spilotes, which I've heard can make a great display animal. My other option is some form of Asian Elaphe. I'm definitely leaning toward the Spilotes because A. I like them more, and B. they tend to have more of an arboreal tendency so IMHO that makes them a better display animal. I'm looking for some other input on this though. Would either of these species be able to handle the stresses of a permanent school display? Why or why not? And if not, can you name any other fairly active species that would make a better choice?

I appreciate any input you might have.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Spilotes have a variable personality some are mellow and others will strike glass at a passersby. Some display well and others use a hide more often. The Spilotes is one of my favorites but having worked with them over the years I am not sure it is a good fit for a classroom. I am sure that most would adjust as there is a pair on display at the Henery Dorly Zoo and quite used to people gawking at them but the enclosure is HEAVELY PLANTED. I may have created more questions then answers but Henry Dorly in Omaha Nebraska should be able to shed light on your quest if Spilotes is a must have…..Bill
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

This doesn't exactly address your post, but after teaching Elementary school in two different centuries I've found rosy boas to be the best classroom snake ever. They're graceful and docile. They handle easily for ongoing measuring activities. They do well in a fairly small enclosure, hiding under the substrate to get close to localized heat source as they choose to. If they choose not to eat over much of the winter, no big deal. The pair I've kept for two years now were Randy Wright yearlings when I acquired them. Excellent animals from a stellar source.

When you start your teaching job I urge you to start with a small number of animals. Demands of the profession can be overwhelming for the first few years.

Good luck with everything!

Thank you both for your candid and honest replies. I definitely appreciate input from experienced teachers. I will reconsider my desire for Spilotes in light of the fact that they might not be able to handle a potentially high stress level. That being said, I am planning on giving any animal in my classroom ample opportunities to hide from prying eyes.

I have the benefit of being partners with a first-year life science teacher who also keeps an array of animals in his room. I've been able to watch first hand how the kids reacted to the animals and how they've grown accustomed to them. In November last year, I did a full day's worth of snake-oriented presentations to his kids that was extremely well received. Of course everyone's experiences are going to be different, but his experiences have proven to me that keeping an array is possible with careful observations. FYI, he currently keeps a large male ball, a juvenile cornsnake, two acanthurus monitors, and several fish tanks. He had an adult eastern coachwhip and rats before.

I'm not meaning this in argument with your points Steve. I completely understand your position and will of course take your advice into consideration. That being said, (and don't take this personally) I probably won't consider a rosy as for one reason or another, I've never liked that species and don't really want to keep anything in the room I myself don't enjoy having around. This is not meant to be a slam against rosies by *any* means, just personal preference. I have a thing for giant colubrids...what can I say?
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

How about trying a Black Milksnake, Honduran, Pueblan, etc. These all get to a respectable size, are super docile and are very tolerant in regards to their husbandry.
Good luck

Actually, now that you mention them, they hadn't even crossed my mind yet. I've always liked the Hondos anyway. Docility isn't a super important concern to me, as I plan to have other snakes in the room that will be quite handleable, but of course if the kids know that a particular snake is "off limits" for one reason or another, that'll be the one they want to handle all the time. Anyway, thanks for the tipcs.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Yeah, the Milks come in a variety of colors and their docile temeprament is a major plus with having snakes around kids. Even if the kids know what's up with the snakes there is always a chance for a mishap and who needs an ignorant herp hating parent giving you grief!

Good luck

I have donated several indigos on occasion for classroom use. In one instance, a wing-nut parent, who either thought snakes in a classroom were too dangerous, was a animal-rights nut case, or had some religious "Evil Serpent" stance, complained to state officials that there were snakes in the class. The state animal authorities decided the teacher had broke the law and began trying to figure out how he broke the law... They decided they would use the D.c.couperi and it's status as Endangered for the target, yet still uncertain, broken law.

I had to send a letter to the sherriff explaining that the indigo that was on display in the classroom had been legally bred and donated to the school for educational display, legally shipped and maintained, and that NO federal law had been broken.

Needless to say, my confidence in parents wanting quality education for their children and Animal Control authorities knowing and enforcing laws intelligently was shattered.

This experience convinced me that donating to educational facilities below college level is just too risky.

Sorry about the bummer story, but hey, it's stuff folks should hear about too.

I hope you have a great career Chance.

Doug T
www.dougtaylorreptiles.com

Hey Doug. Thanks for replying. I'm very sorry to hear about the incident with the nutty parent. I suppose that's always a possibility regardless of what sort of animal is in the room. Parents are great at irrationalizing perceived dangers to their 'little preciouses' - while all along teacher hears said-little preciouses talking about all the alcohol they illicitly drank this past weekend. So I suppose that's just a necessary evil of the job. I'm not going to let it deter me from sharing my love of herps with my kids though. So far, I've found the vast majority of students genuinely fascinated by snakes, even at the high school level. That's not to say I'm ever going to leave a cage unlocked though!

Anyway, best of luck with your projects. Jeff told me about a few of them this weekend and you really have some great stuff going on over there. Those mussuranas are...well...words need not be spoken. I wish you the very best of luck with them.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

In my limited experience Spilotes are active snakes and diurnal so thats a plus. I had two wild caught adults that were a little nervous but still would come "out" to see whats going on and if food was going to be offered. I presently own a young captive bred individual who is very easy to handle and much less nervous. I beleive this animal could deal with the stess of being a display animal. If you decide to go with an asian rat taiwan beauty's are fearless as adults, get very large and are quite colorful. They also get very tame(if their considerable appetite requirements are being met; if not they will try to eat you even if you haven't handled a rodent). Great Valley Serp. has the nicest ones I've seen. I presently have a big blue who's pretty mean but is always out on the prowl. Maybe not a good snake for kids to handle but as a display animal he's large, attractive and will rip food out of your fingers.

I too have limited experience (only a few months) with Spilotes, but have three neonates that are some of the most inquisitive and self-confident snakes I have ever owned. My two males will take food from my right hand while I hold them with my left. I believe that if you were to find a very young Tiger Rat and raise it up in that environment, it would make an awesome display animal. Another good display animal that I might suggest would be an Amazon Tree Boa. These are also some of my favorite animals and again, if raised up from a very young snake, can make great display animals. I have several young adults (3 year olds) that I've raised up from neonates that have never had a hide box, but also have never missed a meal. They are always out, even though they are nocturnal and mostly become active at dusk. As a generality, most ammies are fairly handleable with some care (and a good hook), and if you can get a cbb baby, chances are very good you will have a completely docile little tree boa. Pictured is my one holdback from last summer and she is a true gem - amazing color, great appetite and calm as a ball python. Good luck in your quest!

Billy

Thanks for the reply and the pictures Billy. That Amazon is gorgeous. I don't think I've seen many that were so light and vibrant while being unicolor. I'd be curious to see what her parents look like.

I had had an Amazon before that really wasn't very snappy and could be easily handled...as long as the hook preceded my hand into the cage. I'm not sure I would've trusted him around kids, but I never had any problems with him. The only downside to them is that they are nocturnal, and I'm wanting to find another species or two that will be active during the day while the kids can watch. Who knows though.

Keep the replies coming folks. You've all thrown out some great ideas and advice.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Dad is the green one and mom is the dark red/black one.

those were virtually untamable. Great, now you've got me thinking about this species, like I need more animals. What's the going price for the vibrant orange ones (captive bred)? That thing is unreal!

They tend to run the gamut from completely tame, to mildly unpredictable to heat-seeking missile freaks. That's for wc's. What I've found with the truly US cbb ones is that they tend to be calmer overall, especially if they get some interaction as babies. I believe going rate is anywhere from $125 up to about $350. The one pictured had a littermate that was a bit deeper orange, with just a hint of dark orange pattern (still, no black) and sold for $250. That animal was real gem too with never even a hint of striking. I also really like them for their hugely variable colors.

Billy

>>those were virtually untamable. Great, now you've got me thinking about this species, like I need more animals. What's the going price for the vibrant orange ones (captive bred)? That thing is unreal!

I have thirty or forty snakes in my classroom. My students (high school) prefer large specimens that they can hold. They tend to be not easily impressed at that age, so they don't appreciate the six nice green tree pythons unless they can hold the. There are only about ten kids that i trust holding the GTP's, and those kids have yurned three specimen into puppy dogs with the almost daily holdings that they endure. I was worried that they'd respond negatively somehow, but they haven't (feed well, seem unstressed). The rest are corns, kings and albino gophers. The beautiful applegate gophers actually impress the kids - not easy to do. A Brazilian Rinbow Boa is a favorite for his size and strength.
Anyway, the students want to touch the critters or they are unimpressed. Some kids, the future herpers, are impressed by everything, but the majority of kids need a whiz bang experience. What has amazed me is how much touching most snakes will grow accustomed to.

When the day is done there are exeptions to the rule!

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I would say so judging by that picture! Nice!

My daughter Alexandria wanted you to see her holding our coachwhip also. Although Coachwhips have a bad reputation he has gotten to know us and he trusts us for short periods of time.

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Excellent pictorial illustration to show that for every "animal rule," there's always an individual of any species out there just begging to break it. And oh, the red on that Masticophis is breathtaking.

Needless to say, I've come nowhere near close to narrowing down my choices, but I now have some good leads. I greatly appreciate everyone's replies to my inquiry and want you to know I'm taking it all to heart. I personally believe animals in the classroom are one of the best ways to help kids get over the fear their parents or peers instilled into them for these animals, as it presents them in a controlled environment on a daily basis. Even though I'm just interning this semester, I've already helped a couple girls at least partially overcome their fears in touching the tail of a 9' olive python - which they vowed they wouldn't come near when they first saw it. So there is always hope. Again, thanks for the help.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

I would add this: whatever species you choose for classroom use, make sure your cages are lockable and that you control the key. There will always be some kid who thinks it would be a cool thing to pilfer one of your snakes between classes and put it down some girl's shirt, with a stomped-to-death or esaped snake as the result. A good lesson going in to teaching is to realize that the kids are not all little darlings, and that one or two are probably miniature sociopaths in training.

>>one or two are probably miniature sociopaths in training.

Hah, though that quote isn't included in most educational curriculum, it probably should be! This semester especially, now that I'm actually in control of several classes and not just observing them, I've learned quite well just how vile some parent's "little darling" can be. The kids at the school at which I'm interning stole a teacher's black ratsnake last year, so I've taken no chances with the animals I've brought so far. And you can bet your rear that any cage I keep in my classroom next year will be securely locked. My partner doesn't lock his cages, mainly because he didn't want to invest in the kind that would lock, and so far he hasn't had any problems. He does always keep his room locked and never allows kids in there without him being there though. That, and he teaches at a *very* small school where it would be hard for students to hide such actions as stealing one of the teacher's pets. I think he has partially lucked out as well, because his students are quite receptive to his animals and his classroom is now probably the most popular for people to stop by and visit.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Chance, don't forget Pituophis. Natural occuring ones like northern pines, black pines, and some locality bulls(like Kankakee and Omaha)look really cool IMO, if your got some extra money, LA pines. And of course, there are all kinds of morphs. You know that they are typically docile with enough handling and get a reasonable size, and you could keep it to US native snakes if you got one.

Other snakes like Russian and Europeon rats are typically calmer and better for handling than the beauty snakes. They look nice and grow large. Theres also red-tailed green and rhino rats, which would both look nice in an arboreal cage.
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0.0.1 California King Snake
0.1.0 Ball Python

Snakes that make great classroom displays are rough green snakes.
Musk and Mud turtles are fantastic in small settings.
Last, I recommend a trio of garters.
Lots of perks to these common animals.
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...and I think to myself, "What a wonderful world."

MY EXPERIANCE IS FOR A CLASSROOM EASTERN CHAIN KINGS ARE VERY MILD MANNERED AND COOL SNAKES YOU CAN TRY THEM

I would recommend a Brazilian Rainbow boa, I fell in love with these snakes when I was a kid and was fortunate enough to finally get one! (Now I have 6 and breed them!) They are not only docile and very pretty but you could make the cage setup an entire lesson in itself, basing it on the natural habitat, where they need humidty and warmth, which can be proivided by applying moss and subtrates to the cage as well as a couple low climbing branches.
I would love to be in your classroom, just so you know. Unfortunately I grew up without classroom pets.

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Jess
1.3 adult brazilian rainbows
1.2 baby BRBs born 6/18
1.0 normal corn
1.0 african brown house snake
0.1 hypo Boa constrictor
0.1 normal ball python
2.4.2 crested geckos
1.1 western hognoses
0.2 kitties Marina (aka Mayhem)and Chaos
1.0 boyfriend to keep me spoiled
1.1 paranoid parents "too many snakes!"