Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,

I have a male Texas rat who is regurging and refusing to eat. He was on the skinny side when I received him but I was assured that he ate f/t mice. So of course, I tried to feed him f/t, which he promptly refused. I let him be for a while, thinking that he was still a little unsettled from being shipped, and then tried giving him a live mouse, which he took. The next day he regurged.

Since then, I have reduced the size of his meals to live fuzzy rat pups but he still keeps regurging when he actually eats. I keep him in a 28 qt container on newspaper with heat tape running up the back. He's got hides on both his warm and cool sides along with a paper towel roll with some newspaper crumpled inside it running along one long side. He's also got a water dish that's just big enough for him to sit and soak in.

I'm at my wits end with this guy - he's getting extremely skinny. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated!!!!

Thanks,
Melissa

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I use a product called NutriBac that is supposed to help replenish the whatever ya wanna call it stuff in the snakes belly it loses when they puke. I know many who use it and it seems to help. You must let the snakes stomach get back to normal which many feel takes 1-2 weeks before offering food. When they have previously barfed the stomachs natural bacterias that aid in digestion, the snake can not easily digest its next meal and will often regurge again, and after a few times it could perish.
Your setup seems appropriate, but I don't know how long the snake is and what size mice you're offering it? If it pooped since you owned it...did you notice it to be extra foul smelling or mucousy looking?
You mention rat pups...maybe it has a preference for mice???
If you give the snake a break from feeding for a week or two and supply water at all times it may rebound with a few smaller than average meals spaced out a little longer then normal. I would not handle it, and would check its mouth and nostrils for mucous and check the cloaca for crust or any signs of illness. Hope this helps. You can find Nutribac at some of the reptile supply places like the Beanfarm which is listed on this site.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Hello Tom,

Thanks for your input! What you said about the natural bacteria in their stomachs makes total sense. I've worked in the animal industry for years and it's the same in other animals, including humans. I'll have to look into the NutriBac.

The snake is about 3-3.5 ft long. At first, I offered him large f/t mice. When he regurged that, I waited about a week, week and a half and offered him a smaller one. If I remember correctly, he kept that one down and his excrement was normal. Ever since then, he's refused any type of f/t, even large hoppers.

I finally resorted to rat pups because he refused live mice. I thought perhaps he thought they were too big for him and I have a rat that just had 14 pups. He's tried two rat pups and regurged them.

Other than getting skinny, he appears to be in good health. I always keep an eye and ear out for upper resps but he's not wheezing or blowing bubbles and his mouth and nostrils are clear. His vent also seems normal - no crust or inflammation.

I'll definitely look into the NutriBac, though. Anything's worth a try at this point! Any more advice you can offer from here?

Thanks so much!
Melissa

First: Don't try to feed him for the next ten days.

Check the temp of the cage. Make sure that your snake is around 80F.

Make sure that he always has clean water in a container larg enough for him to soak in.

After the ten days are up, offer him something small. I have no idea how big he is, but this animal should be very easy for him to get dow. If you can see a lump after he eats it, the animal was too large.

Check on him after 24 hours. If the animal that you gave him didn't stay down, take him to a reptile vet.

If he is able to keep it down, wait three more days and feed him again. Increase the size of the prey slowly until he is eating normal size prey animals, and you are only feeding him once a week.

I can tell you that my Texans eat F/T mice, but they like me to swing the mouse in front of them.

One last thing, let the seller know about all the problems you are having. Give him or her a chance to do the right thing.

Good luck with your Texan.

Rick

Hello Rick,

Thanks for your input! I definitely wasn't planning on trying to feed him again within the next couple days. I'll make sure to wait at least ten, though.

I spot check all of my animals at least once daily so he'll always have fresh water. I've found him soaking on several occasions. Also, with my set up, his temps are just about perfect. I have a rack system with heat tape running down the back. The warm side reaches mid to high 80's and the cool side never gets below 80. I keep all my animals in their own room with an ambient temp of about 83.

I'll try offering again, but unfortunately this isn't the first small meal he's regurged. He's about 3-3.5 ft and he should be taking down med-lg mice with ease. I've got a female for him who's about his size and she loves her large mice.

I have no idea what technique to try with this guy to entice him to eat. I keep a wide variety of species and some like mice dangled, some like them left outside their hide box, and some need them left over night. I've tried everything with this guy. With the last rat pup he just regurged, I had to confine him to his hide box and leave the pup in there with him. He took it after a bit so I let him out of his hide and he kept it down overnight. I found the regurg this afternoon when I checked on him again.

I've talked with the seller a few times and he assured me that the animal has always eaten f/t. He also said that the animal has never taken live before. He wasn't in the best condition when I got him, though, so that makes me wonder if he was eating as well as the seller said.

I'm afraid I might end up having to take him to a reptile vet but I wanted to post here first to see if anyone would pick up something I missed. Can you suggest anything else?

Again, thank you very much!!

Melissa

>>I've found him soaking on several occasions. Also, with my set up, his temps are just about perfect. I have a rack system with heat tape running down the back. The warm side reaches mid to high 80's and the cool side never gets below 80. I keep all my animals in their own room with an ambient temp of about 83.

Sounds like the animal is getting too hot in my opinion. An ambient temp of 83 in the room and then heat tape on the rack? That sounds a bit warm to me. The soaking is a clue that the snake might be too hot as well. (Although snakes do soak for other reasons, or for no reason at all.)

Do you have a min/max type digital thermometer handy? If so I'd recommmend double checking the highest and lowest temps inside the snake's cage over a 24 hour period. There may be a time frame in which the temps are getting warmer than you might realize and this can cause regurgitation, especially in a snake that may have been in a compromised condition to begin with. If you don't have a digital min/max thermometer, most WalMarts or other discount stores have them for around $10 or so.

About a year or two ago I had a customer buy a baby corn snake from me. After the initial "do not feed" period, they had regurgitation problems. When I asked about their temps, they replied "80-85 F, near perfect." I suggested they get a min/max thermometer just to be sure. Turns out they didn't even have a thermometer and were guessing the temps. But when they did go buy one, the problem immediately presented itself. The snake was experiencing temps in its cage of over 100 F at times! Problem solved, as far as I know the snake did fine after that.

Sounds like the snake got to you in a less than optimim condition and perhaps the combination of that and higher temps could have pushed it too far? Sorry to be so long winded, please take my suggestions with a grain of salt. The temps may or may not be the problem, as always what works for me or others may not work for you. There have been alot of good suggestions in this thread so hopefully the snake will come around for you.

Good luck,
dg

Dwight said:
"I suggested they get a min/max thermometer just to be sure. Turns out they didn't even have a thermometer and were guessing the temps. "

Yeah, Boy....
Don't Guess.

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Regards, Bill McGighan

Dwight,

I do, in fact, have a digital temp gun. I'm quite obsessive about my temps because I keep such a wide variety of species. The heat tape on the back of the racks have never been a problem, even for fellow Texas rats. This boy's two females are above and below him and are eating normally. The bigger female was also a little skinny when I received her (I bought them as a breeding trio), but she hasn't had too many problems.

When I first set the racks up I was afraid the tape would be a little too much but I was assured by some big names in the industry that as long as they could get away from it, there shouldn't be any problems. I realize that my ambient temp might be a little higher than normal for some of the colubrids but I also keep boids and elapids so I had to find a middle ground. I will check his temps again, though...just to make sure.

And about those people with the corn....wow! I know you never can tell about anyone, just like everyone has been checking out my husbandry, but who guesses on temps? Although I suppose it's different for the casual keeper who just gets one or two and hasn't fallen victim to the herp disease (yet) to not be quite as perfectionistic about their husbandry.

As for being longer winded, have you been looking at the length of my responses? I think I'm the worst one. I appreciate all the advice everyone's been giving me. Every little thing is worth checking out if it turns out that one of them is the culprit!

Thanks,
Melissa

Sorry, but this part is completely wrong...>>If he is able to keep it down, wait three more days and feed him again. Increase the size of the prey slowly until he is eating normal size prey animals, and you are only feeding him once a week.

Here is what you do (I've more experience than I care to admit with this scenario) - wait a MINIMUM of two weeks (preferably three) before offering any food. Tom got it mostly right in that your animal's internals are all screwed up right now as well as probably being somewhat dehydrated. After that waiting period, offer it a very small prey item - about 1/3 to 1/2 the normal size. If it's gonna puke again it will be within three days. If he makes it past that danger zone, breathe a little sigh of relief, but DO NOT feed it yet. Wait until he defecates first. That will be the sign that his digestive system is on the mend. After he poops, feed him another very small prey item and wait for another defecation. Repeat this until he has had four or five meals with good defecations and then go back to normal sized prey.

If for some reason, he regurges again after the initial waiting period, put him on another waiting period, but extend it by a week and then try again.

I have a female yellow rat (the one at the top of this page) that absolutely can not tolerate more than one mouse at a feeding. If I overdo it, she WILL puke for sure. I have had her for about three years and she gave me 11 good eggs last season and she does really well, as long as I don't overfeed her. I suspect your texan may just be the same.

Good luck and BE PATIENT! It takes some real discipline to not feed your snake when they are practically begging for food for 2-3 weeks.

Billy

I agree with Billy, wait at least 2 weeks before offering any food. BUT you'll have to let a vet look at it, a.s.a.p. that is. To me it all sound like an infection of the mucuous lining of the intestine. If it is, it'll get worse if not treated appropiately. It won't cure by itself. I highly recommend using ciprofloxazine, an antibioticum which kills a very wide range of pathogenic bacteria. It does not slow down or stop growth, nor does it have any other detrimental side effects. So if it doesn't work, no harm is done. You can treat the snake while it's waiting for it's next meal. I'd say give it a shot.

Billy,

That sounds like a very sound strategy. I just wish he was begging for food! He hasn't even looked interested in anything, even before the last regurg. At first, he just refused the small f/t I was offering and was only interested in live. Then he started refusing the live so I had to put him in a smaller container with the hopper to get him to eat. Then, of course, he just regurged so I haven't offered anything since my first post, as per numerous suggestions, but I'm getting worried about him because he's so skinny.

Thanks,
Melissa

If he's refusing food, he's either stressed or sick and I think a trip to a good vet for a fecal and possibly some bloodwork might be in order. Like someone else mentioned (DG I think) check the temps and make sure they are dialed in perfectly. He may also be severely dehydrated, so soaking him a couple of times per week for 5 or 10 minutes might also help. Dehydration does terrible things to snakes.

Not sure what else to offer except good luck with him Melissa!
Billy

>>Billy,
>>
>>That sounds like a very sound strategy. I just wish he was begging for food! He hasn't even looked interested in anything, even before the last regurg. At first, he just refused the small f/t I was offering and was only interested in live. Then he started refusing the live so I had to put him in a smaller container with the hopper to get him to eat. Then, of course, he just regurged so I haven't offered anything since my first post, as per numerous suggestions, but I'm getting worried about him because he's so skinny.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Melissa

Billy,

I've got a couple places to call tomorrow to see if I can get him in ASAP. I'm pretty sure by now that it's not my temps (I've checked them several times since I first posted). I wouldn't be surprised if he was dehydrated, though - I'll have to soak him again soon. I've soaked him before when he was first being so troublesome and to help him through a shed. Thank you for all of your help! If I find out anything from the vet, I'll let everyone know.

Thanks again,
Melissa

Sounds like he may have Crypto, I would contact the person you got the snake from and inform him. Keep the animal seperate from your collection THIS IS IMPORTANT as you dont want to infect the rest of your animals. Im surprised nobody mentioned this possibility to you.

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Cheers
Lateralis
"I would rather be precisely wrong than approximately right"
Marion "Doc" Ford

I agree that cryptosporidium is a definate possiblity with any snake that is regurging and losing weight. The only way to know for sure is to have an acid fast test done on a fecal sample. Unfortunately, crypto can be hard to detect and it may take a few tests to find it. There is currently no cure for crypto, and of course you should maintain extreme quarantine from the rest of the collection until you know what you have. Other symptoms of crypto besides regurging and wasting away are a firm mid-body swelling and foul smelling, mucous laden diarrhea.

-Toby

This is my two cents Melissa.
Since it is loosing weight and has not been holding down food for a while now I would keep it with access to temps in the mid 70's with a warm spot at the temp you already have for it. It is just loosing body weight faster at the constant warm temps you have it at.
I would wait a MINIMUM of 2 weeks before offering a SMALL meal as it has already regurged several times from what you have stated. If it then holds down a small meal I would wait for about 10 days before offering it a second small meal. I would then continue to feed it small and infrequent meals for a couple months as it will take a while before you can be confident it's stomach has calmed down as long as this has been going on. I would only be concerned with getting it back on track very slowly at this point and not worry about getting weight back on it quick what so ever as that would just be asking for a relapse.
Since it has regurged several times a visit to a vet would be best as it could be anything from parasites, infection to just a very upset stomach causing the problem. I have heard of the stuff Tom was talking about above working well but it's hard to know what the real cause is.
Good luck. Randy Whittington

The problem isn't to get it to eat at all! the problem is he can't hold the meals down, and there can be a number of reasons!, some of them have already been addressed(temp, etc) the more this goes on, the worse the snakes health will be jeopardized. Really,...it's time to stop playing around and see a "GOOD" reptile vet!.....it also could be very likely that the snake has "Gastro-enteritis" caused by an amoeba(Entamoeba invadens) the symptoms of this are REGURGITATION...I have had a few snakes in my many years that had the very same regurge. symptoms, that didn't hold down meals(even very small ones) I administered "Flagyl"(Metronidazole) at a dose of 25-50mg/kg (second dose in 14 days)or even slightly higher, and immediately...PROBLEM GONE!! held down every meal from then on an is in awesome health to this day!.......however, I don't like to recommend self treatment too often, as it is hard to diagnose things over the net, but in any case, this drug is well tollerated by snakes, and could very well irradicate the problem!......I agree that the snake should NOT be fed for at least a week if this is administered(also,it lets his stomach recover)....the next problem is,..you just might have to see the vet in order to get the Flagyl, I don't know!...but in any case you need to do something fast!........I would HIGHLY recommend you see a vet....SOON, or at the very least, give him a good dose of Flagyl as I suggested,...the life of the snake depends on your swift action!..........good luck..................Doug
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Doug,

I agree the problem is getting him to hold the meals down, but I also need to worry about getting him to eat. When he hasn't regurged, he's just refused. He had been getting less and less interested in anything, live or f/t.

I have been on the prowl for a "good" reptile vet in my area, but they're a little hard to come by. I have several places lined up to call on Monday when offices open. Metronidazole is a very common antibiotic, though - I have a cat on it at the moment for (wouldn't you know it) GI related issues. I am a pre-veterinary student studying herpetology also and I've worked in the vet field for some time now so access to it shouldn't be a problem. My mother is also a licensed vet tech so if I can't get it, she can. I've self-administered my snakes drugs before, but I'll definitely have him looked at before I go poking around and causing him more stress.

Thanks for your help!

~Melissa