Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Boy what a fun bunch of posts I missed while I was laid up after surgery. It's a shame too because the last two weeks I've had all the time in the world to be on the computer, but I don't have a direct link to this forum on my laptop and the main KS page absolutely shuts down my connection from my lap top.

I don't know how much I can add to Jimmy's posts, there are quite a few different posts on different forums about this and anyone is welcome to email me about them.

Before I ever suspected Ultra's to be hybrids, I acquired 1.1 het Lavender Motley poss. het Ultras. The father was an Ultramel Motley direct from Mike Shivers. This pair of snakes NEVER looked right to me. They were a bizarre brown/orange color that just wasn't "corn", and yes I've seen a lot of corns, wild caught and captive bred. The pattern was also abnormal and they behaved a little differently than my average corn. One marker I noticed on them, and many others that are closer to the original line, are extreme pitchfork head markings.

I began to investigate the sources of Ultra and I didn't like what I found out... the findings have already been discussed. Of course at that time, I got MORE opposition to the idea than I do now. So I let it die for a few months and then posted a poll on another forum. In this forum, I posted individual pics of the two poss. Ultra hets, and a few other of my corns that were either strangely colored, or had aberrant saddles, just to be fair. I didn't think it would be fair if I posted pics of two that looked a bit off and the rest looking like "perfect corns". I asked viewers which ones looked the most "hybrid". Interestingly, the poss het Ultras won the lead for that poll by a considerable amount.

Shortly after, I started noticing similarities between the poss het Ultras, and my Rusty Frosteds. The Rusty Frosteds were sold to me as 50/50 Grey Rat/Corns and it was obvious that's what they were. I also started to noticed that one of these Rusty Frosteds looked a lot like Ultras I had seen, and the other looked a lot like Golddusts I had seen, both animals were male. That's when stinkin' thinkin' got the best of me and I tinkered a little bit. I set up a breeding trial between the "Golddust looking one" and a Snow, as well as an Amber. Results were as I suspected. The Snow produced Amels, Ultramels, Aneries, Ultramel Aneries, and Snows. The Amber produced 100% Caramels. I found it even more interesting that the hatchlings didn't look all that hybrid considering they were only 75% Cornsnake. So I went off to see if I was the only one... poll time again. I posted a poll with 12 hatchling snakes, 6 pure to the best of my knowledge, and 6 known to be 25% Grey Rat. I offered a $50 credit to anyone that was able to guess who was a known hybrid and who wasn't. 43 (give or take one or two) participated. Some very at very beginning stages of knowledge, but some very well seasoned breeders participated as well. This is the percentage of "hybrid votes" the hybrids got...
#1 only 24% guessed hybrid
#2 only 34% guessed hybrid
#3 only 24% guessed hybrid
#7 only 26% guessed hybrid
#8 only 15% guessed hybrid
#9 only 32% guessed hybrid
NO ONE guessed all the hybrids correctly. This goes to show, if 43 people of varying experience were not able to see markers in 25% Grey Rats... how on earth would they tell as that percentage went down? Nowadays, that percentage had got to be at least half that.

One other note about markers, I don't know how many times I've heard a Golddust breeder say "Boy, these are a whole different yellow than Ambers".... uh.... ya. Ever stop to think about why?

Joe Pierce also has pics of some of the original Ultra carriers and they are undoubtably Hybrids. To me, when you can trace Ultras and Ultra Hybrids back to the same source, it gets scary. Even if you believe this person kept a "pure strain" and bred it into hybrids, how do you tell them apart given that once they are down to 25% Grey Rat, people can't tell they are hybrids?

And….. that’s all I have to say about that.

At least for now.
Carol Huddleston
Carol@LowBellyReptiles.com
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Carol Huddleston
www.lowbellyreptiles.com

thanks carol, and i hope you are doing well! you know when you have a feeling something isnt right looking?? thats what ultras and ultramels look like to me. but thats just me personally. i'm no one BIG in the corn world, i wish i was, but i'm not... i wish what you just said was in the "cornsnake morph guide" for 2007, but its not. i guess it HAS to be proven out a lil more. another type of corn thats unusual to me is the cinder. dont get me wrong, i LOVE love LOVE the snake... just confused... i dunno... just ranting really how are your breeding plans going??

~kinion
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~Sober Serpents~
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn(Just A Pet), A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

Maybe I have been away too long.... What the heck is a Cinder?
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Cinders are a new morph originating with Rich Z. They are also called Anery C and Morph Z but I decided to sell mine as Cinders since this name is easier to search for. I have had a pattern pop up in my that looks similar to some emoryi patterns. Of course this causes some to freak out and call hybrid but the similarity is not more than the one between pied sided bloods and white sided black rats. Sure the "look" is similar, but when you look in to either scenerio, that just doesn't make sense. Especially since this new pattern is starting to show inheritance patterns that emoyri pattern does not.
I have more links with more thoughs on this as well if anyone is interested
Carol
Carol@LowBellyReptiles.com
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Carol Huddleston
www.lowbellyreptiles.com

>>Boy what a fun bunch of posts I missed while I was laid up after surgery. It's a shame too because the last two weeks I've had all the time in the world to be on the computer, but I don't have a direct link to this forum on my laptop and the main KS page absolutely shuts down my connection from my lap top.
>>
>>I don't know how much I can add to Jimmy's posts, there are quite a few different posts on different forums about this and anyone is welcome to email me about them.
>>
>>Before I ever suspected Ultra's to be hybrids, I acquired 1.1 het Lavender Motley poss. het Ultras. The father was an Ultramel Motley direct from Mike Shivers. This pair of snakes NEVER looked right to me. They were a bizarre brown/orange color that just wasn't "corn", and yes I've seen a lot of corns, wild caught and captive bred. The pattern was also abnormal and they behaved a little differently than my average corn. One marker I noticed on them, and many others that are closer to the original line, are extreme pitchfork head markings.
>>
>>I began to investigate the sources of Ultra and I didn't like what I found out... the findings have already been discussed. Of course at that time, I got MORE opposition to the idea than I do now. So I let it die for a few months and then posted a poll on another forum. In this forum, I posted individual pics of the two poss. Ultra hets, and a few other of my corns that were either strangely colored, or had aberrant saddles, just to be fair. I didn't think it would be fair if I posted pics of two that looked a bit off and the rest looking like "perfect corns". I asked viewers which ones looked the most "hybrid". Interestingly, the poss het Ultras won the lead for that poll by a considerable amount.
>>
>>Shortly after, I started noticing similarities between the poss het Ultras, and my Rusty Frosteds. The Rusty Frosteds were sold to me as 50/50 Grey Rat/Corns and it was obvious that's what they were. I also started to noticed that one of these Rusty Frosteds looked a lot like Ultras I had seen, and the other looked a lot like Golddusts I had seen, both animals were male. That's when stinkin' thinkin' got the best of me and I tinkered a little bit. I set up a breeding trial between the "Golddust looking one" and a Snow, as well as an Amber. Results were as I suspected. The Snow produced Amels, Ultramels, Aneries, Ultramel Aneries, and Snows. The Amber produced 100% Caramels. I found it even more interesting that the hatchlings didn't look all that hybrid considering they were only 75% Cornsnake. So I went off to see if I was the only one... poll time again. I posted a poll with 12 hatchling snakes, 6 pure to the best of my knowledge, and 6 known to be 25% Grey Rat. I offered a $50 credit to anyone that was able to guess who was a known hybrid and who wasn't. 43 (give or take one or two) participated. Some very at very beginning stages of knowledge, but some very well seasoned breeders participated as well. This is the percentage of "hybrid votes" the hybrids got...
>>#1 only 24% guessed hybrid
>>#2 only 34% guessed hybrid
>>#3 only 24% guessed hybrid
>>#7 only 26% guessed hybrid
>>#8 only 15% guessed hybrid
>>#9 only 32% guessed hybrid
>>NO ONE guessed all the hybrids correctly. This goes to show, if 43 people of varying experience were not able to see markers in 25% Grey Rats... how on earth would they tell as that percentage went down? Nowadays, that percentage had got to be at least half that.
>>
>>One other note about markers, I don't know how many times I've heard a Golddust breeder say "Boy, these are a whole different yellow than Ambers".... uh.... ya. Ever stop to think about why?
>>
>>Joe Pierce also has pics of some of the original Ultra carriers and they are undoubtably Hybrids. To me, when you can trace Ultras and Ultra Hybrids back to the same source, it gets scary. Even if you believe this person kept a "pure strain" and bred it into hybrids, how do you tell them apart given that once they are down to 25% Grey Rat, people can't tell they are hybrids?
>>
>>And….. that’s all I have to say about that.
>>

Hey Carol,
Thanks for bringing more information to the forum.
I tried to relay what I had read but sometimes it just doesn't help.
People will believe what they WANT to believe.
To me, and I can only speak for myself, the evidence is too overwhelming to ignore.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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..........ultras are crazy........that is a bad marker..........I hate them........

I own a pure ultra hypo and his pure daughter......as well as ultramels het lav....and 2 females het ultra and lav I guess..........they are all crazy.....

........I was told they probably had grey rat in them 5 minutes after I bought them..........and that they were from same guy who made frosteds.....

I always wondered why people buy, sell, talk about them and never mention the hybrid word..........yet if a snake is 1% cremecicle they freak out in here....

.......Thanxx alot.......good luck..........
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Hey Jeff,

This is the ultramel I purchased from you. It sure looks like a cornsnake? How to tell the difference? He has calmed down quite a bit. He used to bite me every time I picked him up. Now he just takes a strike posture. But once in hand he calms down.

that's why they posted...you cannot tell......it is maybe 25% grey rat??....maybe not.......noone will admit much......mine all got meaner and even more hateful......LOL......

breed it to a lav and see what you get.....
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>>
>>I always wondered why people buy, sell, talk about them and never mention the hybrid word..........yet if a snake is 1% cremecicle they freak out in here....
>>

That is the $64,000.00 question.
I would love an answer to that one myself.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Unfortunately, hybrids will continue to infiltrate collections no matter what(not just the Ultramel). There are just too many types of hybrids out there, with thousands more being bred every successive year!(honestly represented or NOT)honesty doesn't play a part at all by the seller, because however the cause, they still find there way in!, many by way of unknowing breeders/buyers that really don't know, or care in the first place.....there are just too many people that are driven to "create" what they hope is a "special" animal that will sell for more money than if it was "normal" at any cost to the hobby.......This is being done now at such a rediculous rate with so many species, I hate to think what will become of any "pure" strains that are left in the not so distant future.....of course there will still be a few "pure" forms of snakes being around, but only from those people that keep their animals totally isolated from being contaminated by the upcoming majority.....I've grown tired of trying to make a point to many of these people that are "hell-bent" on producing as many weird combinations as humanely possible.....they just get ALL WORKED UP and say they sell the animals responsibly!!....RIGHT!lol, anyone with a brain the size of a pea can figure out that whatever is sold, makes many MORE weird combinations of animals, and continues to "fold" from "day one".......it's just a sad fact there is no end in sight to all the many "Frankenstein" projects.........All I can say, is as long as I have eyes in my head, I will use them, along with my decades of knowledge to the very best of my ability NOT to let any get in my collection,.....then, I also would be part of the on-going problem..............
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Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!

Did I miss the original post by Jimmy? I do not remember Draybar posting anything about ultramels. Did it get deleted? Anyone got a link to the post?
Thanks
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"Life is Killing Me"

Scroll down to the longest thread on the page

paul.
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www.uk-hybrids.com

Sorry, it was late last night when I made the post. No Anerys were produced by the Ultramel Hybrid and the Snow, just Amels, Ultramels, Ultramel Anerys, and Snows.
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Carol Huddleston
www.lowbellyreptiles.com

Thanks, I was killing myself trying to figure that one out.
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Arlon Delorge
Classic Constrictors

This guy was sold to me by a very reputable corn breeder as a normal. But I can tell you this thing does not have the temperament of any corn. She sure has a much faster growth rate than any of the corns I have raised. The musk is definately rat snake in my opinion. Sorry for the picture quality. The reason I puchased her is due to the motley appearance on the dorsal side, but the belly is partly checkered. Also, there is the telltale pitchfork head pattern of Ultra. Time will tell.